Cenk Uygur owes us explanation regarding Armenian Genocide

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Is Mr. Uygur a genocide denier? In his two letters dated 1991 and 1999 respectively Cenk expressed his disagreement with labelling of events in 1915 as genocide, thus effectively siding with the view of Turkish government on the issue. However, the fact that an Armenian is part of the Young Turks right now and Cenk's recent admiration of Samantha Power who is an avid supporter of the Armenian cause, logically leads to the conclusion that Cenk may have changed his mind. Or has he? That's what both Armenian and Turks as well as all the other interested parties would like to know. Here is the copied and pasted text of his earlier letters with the links to the websites it was taken from:

I am a Turkish-American and I am sure my views will also be looked upon with a certain wariness, but I do not subscribe to the idea that I am disqualified from objectivity by my ethnicity.


First, at the very beginning of the article, you seem to reach a conclusion -- "The central Armenian experience of the 20th century, after all, was the death of as many as 1.5 million Armenians ..." and "Every neutral scholar agrees that the Turkish position is propaganda."

The United States helped to sponsor war propaganda against Turkey during World War I as part of an official campaign to smear its enemies, as it did with Germany. Part of this propaganda was the evil butchery of the Turks against the defenseless Christian Armenians. This is what has been rooted in the popular memory of America, with very few Turkish-Americans to combat the insinuations of savagery, yet this is not propaganda?

As far as I could see from the article, every non-Armenian scholar in the field believes it is an open question whether this event was a genocide. Is it the claim of the article that all of these people are tainted by the tentacles of the Turkish government? If not, then why is it not pointed out that no one outside of the "Armenian position" believes it is a genocide? Why is it assumed that the "Turkish studies side" has the burden of proof in overturning the verdict of Turkish guilt? It is because of the underlying assumption that despite what these people in "Turkish studies" say, there must have been a genocide.


I once asked a professor of mine who taught a class on the laws of war and war crimes at Columbia Law School to deprogram me from all the propaganda I had received growing up Turkish. I asked him to please find me evidence of the genocide by neutral scholars so I could know the truth.


After investigating the issue, he came back and said that he could not find one non-Armenian scholar who believed this was a genocide, but since "it looked like a duck, it walked like a duck and it talked like a duck, it must be a duck." If that's not the product of excellent propaganda, I don't know what is.

Cenk Uygur

http://www.salon.com/letter s/1999/06/16/punk/index1.ht ml


Armenians claim that there was another genocide in this century. They claim that the Turkish government, between the years of 1915 and 1923, carried out a genocide of the Armenian people. They claim that the truth of this matter is also beyond reproach.

Every year the Armenian Club takes out a full page ad in the Daily Pennsylvanian making its claims of a genocide. Then they proceed to try to block a similar ad showing the other side, claiming that their version of history cannot be questioned.

Well, I question it. The claims of an Armenian Genocide are not based on historical facts. If the history of the period is examined it becomes evident that in fact no such genocide took place.

Before I go into the facts, though, I plead with you to keep an open mind on the matter. It is all too easy to cast this off as revisionist history. But just because someone wrote in your World History book in high school that this happened does not mean that it did.

Either way, there cannot be any harm in taking a closer look at history to find the truth. After all, if the genocide did take place it should be relatively easy to prove. It is kind of hard to miss the planned extermination of 1.5 million people, isn't it?

Then, one has to wonder why the 69 reknowned American professors, including Oriental Studies Associate Professor Thomas Naff specializing in the field wrote a letter to the U.S. Congress stating that the alleged Armenian genocide was not a historical fact. Did every one of these experts miss all the facts in their lifelong study of the period and area involved? No, in fact these professors sent a letter to Congress questioning the validity of the so-called genocide because they had seen the facts. These people have absolutely nothing to gain by writing revisionist history. As a matter of fact, they have devoted their whole lives to accurately reporting history.

These professors are not some off-the-wall theorizers that are fighting for some obscure cause. They are at the top of their profession. Go talk to them about the facts. Or you could ask Bernard Lewis, possibly the greatest expert in the field, what he knows of it. He calls the Armenian Genocide a "myth."

Bernard Lewis is no revisionist. He is read by almost every student that ever takes a course on the Middle East. In fact, Political Science Professor Adam Garfinkle who taught a course on the Middle East that I took last year described Lewis in this way: "He knows so much about the Middle East that he has probably forgotten more than I could ever hope to know." This same, Bernard Lewis, has concluded that the alleged genocide did not occur.

So why have all these professors come out and taken this controversial stand? Because they have seen the firsthand accounts of American admirals and officials that were in Turkey at the time. They have seen the documents shown as proof of the genocide to be proven conclusively as forgeries. And they have seen what happened at Malta, the Nuremberg trial of the Turks.

These facts are certainly worth looking at.

Rear Admiral Marc Bristol, who served as U.S. High Commissioner in the defeated Ottoman Empire, reported to America at the time:

"I see that reports are being freely circulated in the United States that the Turks massacred thousands of Armenians in the Caucus. The Near East Relief have reports from Yarrow and our own American people which show absolutely that such Armenian reports are absolutely false."

Rear Admiral Colby Chester of the United States Army had this to report about the alleged massacres:

"That affair, however, was in no sense a massacre as the term is known to international law, for the Armenians . . . fully armed, arose in their might and drove the Moslems of Adana, killing more of them than they lost by their own casualties."

James Barton, who was Secretary of the Foreign Department of the American Board of Commissioners at the time, wrote this of the main instigator of false Armenian propaganda in America:

"He is constantly reporting atrocities that never occurred and giving endless misinformation with regard to the situation in Armenia and Turkey."

So one might wonder how this idea of a genocide ever got accepted in America when there were so many authoritative voices speaking against it.

There were the Andonian Documents which claimed to be the memoirs of the Turkish leader Naim Bey, which explicitly stated Turkish intentions to massacre Armenians. These documents were conclusively proven to be forgeries. Professor Erich Feigl characterizes them in this manner, "(there are hundreds) of the unsuccessful forgeries. These range from dates and counterfeit signatures to transmogrified greetings such as 'Bismillahs,' which no Moslem would have ever dared to write." But the damage had been done. They had gained publicity and by the time they were proven to be forgeries, no one cared or was interested in questioning an old fact.

Most influential in this line of propaganda was the book that U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgantheau wrote on the matter. Before he wrote his "story" though, he addressed a letter to President Woodrow Wilson asking him if it was a good idea to write a book that would be staunchly against the German and Turkish governments in an effort to rile the American people against them in war. Wilson approved the idea of initiating propaganda against these countries, and Morgantheau went on to write a book that Professor Heath Lowery characterizes as completely contradictory to Morgantheau's memoirs and his letters of the time period.

All this propaganda was enough to persuade the British to arrest the top 300 Ottoman officials after the war on the charges of genocide. The British held these prisoners for 30 months as they tried to collect evidence against them through the British, American and Ottoman archives. They were planning a Nuremberg type of trial to prosecute the Turks on the charge of genocide.

What happened instead is that they could not find any information that suggested that the Turkish officials had in any way planned a genocide. For example, they received this reply from Sir A. Geddes when they looked into the American archives, "I have made several inquiries of the State Department, and today I am informed that while they are in possession of large number of documents concerning Armenian deportation, from the description I am doubtful whether these documents are likely to prove useful as evidence in prosecuting the Turks."

In the end, with great embarassment the British had to find the Turkish officials innocent of the charges of genocide and release them.

Hence, once you really examine the history of the time it becomes apparent that the allegations of an Armenian Genocide are unfounded. So the question arises of why the Armenians would bother to conjure up such stories, and even go as far as, committing approximately 200 acts of terrorism since 1973 to further their cause, resulting in countless deaths and injuries to government officials and civilians.

The answer is that they want their demands met. Their demands are that they receive close to one-half of the land of the Republic of Turkey for a new Greater Armenia, and that every Armenian claiming to be injured by the alleged genocide be compensated with cash reparations. That is why every year they push the U.S. Congress to pass a bill declaring the Armenian Genocide a historical fact. Fortunately, every year it is defeated because of the courage of people such as the 69 professors who wrote in to explain the truth of the matter.

As Congress has found out though, it is important to understand Armenian objectives when considering their claims.

This also serves as a great example of why free speech should not be restricted on any issue. The voice of all the people must be heard, especially before someone prejudges an issue of this importance. In this regard, I hold out a challenge to any student to a debate in a public forum on the Armenian Genocide so that in this marketplace of ideas the truth may emerge.


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Don't know a lot about the Armenian Genocide, so ...

In general I think it would be good for Turkey to apologize for the things that happened to the Armenians and the Kurds and get it behind them.
That said I think Greece and a lot of the rest of the West should stop with attacking Turkey over Cyprus, the Turks were right invading to protect the Turkish Cypriots, if they hadn't they would have become a victim of genocide. It could even be argued that the invasion was instrumental in ending the right wing junta in Greece.

We need to move on people, so let's everyone apologize for their mistakes and find a way to make the world better for everyone.

It were mad times compared to now, let's hope people in 50 years will feel the same about our time.

by callisto on 03/03/2008 03:30:32 PM EST



We have to go through this every year or so.

Just go away. Cenk was not alive during WW1. He has nothing to apologize for. Go tell it to the U.N.

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 04:47:33 PM EST


Turkey didn't even exist, it was still the Ottoman Empire :)

by callisto on 03/03/2008 06:10:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We have to go through this every year or so."
 
Beg pardon? I guess I wasn't around this board a year ago. If I had a left paper trail this embarassing, I would expect someone to dredge it up from time to time.
 
Since Cenk was only around 20 in 1991, I'm happy to dismiss the first example as the folly of a young hothead. But given that he was still spouting the same denialist line eight years later when he ought to have known better (even if he was a Republican) I for one would like to hear what if anything he thinks of his remarks today.
 
Cenk wasn't around in 1915; few of us were. Do you really think that means it doesn't matter Tim? Really?

by ashbul on 03/03/2008 10:16:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well said...and to all you Cenk defenders, to your favourite host: ..."just calm down"...it's the moral issue that is at stake here, Cenk had clearly been in the denialists’ camp before, whether or not he still is remains unclear...that's why he needs to clarify his position, on the air or in the forum

by atillathehun on 03/04/2008 12:12:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
What exactly are you looking for in this post?

Cenk could come out and say "Yes, it happened, Turks killed Armenians in massive numbers and it was ignored by the West (as usual)."

Whats your point here? We all know it happened - that many people dying in that short amount of time doesnt just happen! It was a genocide. What about it?

What can be done now? Recognition? Retribution? Show me the money? Those alive in 1915 are gone...

Turks and Armenians are always gonna hate each other
(just like the French and English, Catholics and  Protestants in Northern Ireland, Persians and Greeks, Arabs and Israelis) Just get in line, man...

Thanks...

by bobo1 on 03/04/2008 12:20:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'd like to see him address some things he wrote a few years ago which I find kind of disturbing. Even if he already  did so before.

by ashbul on 03/04/2008 12:31:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I can appreciate that...

thanks...

by bobo1 on 03/04/2008 12:34:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]

This is nonsense. IF I were Cenk, I'd say, "I don't OWE you a DAMN thing. If I spent ANY time at all dissing Armenians, you might have a case in pursuing this nonsense. But I DON'T. Who are you to come into MY house and start DEMANDING things?"

If "Atilla" had asked a simple question, it might be different. This SOB came in guns blazing with brain in nuetral. Screw him.

If Cenk spent any time whatsoever on this subject on the show, "Atilla" might be justified in asking. This jerk is demanding an explanation of a "letter to the editor," NOT an editorial on Huffington Post, NOT something Cenk said on the show, NOT some position spouted on a TV show.

As has been stated MANY times before; we are in America, ot os after the year 2000, and the meaning of the phrase "young turk" means a up-and-coming go getter, not a member of an elite killer organization.

Does "Atilla" also want an explanation from Rod Stewart an how he could dare sing a song called Young Turks?

Why the fuck can't these morons focus on the millions of people being killed TODAY instead of perseverating on the fate of the long dead?
 
It boils down to him not requsting info or asking a question. He kicked in the door and started making demands. The ONLY answer he deserves under such circumstances is "Go to hell!"

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 10:23:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I wouldnt think to say Cenk or anyone in his family had the responsibility to say anything, but ethnic histories such as these often bring out irrational thought and blindeness to reality. I didnt realize this was an ongoing issue with certain listeners.

I suppose people have the right to ask, but it is up to Cenk whether he chooses to engage in the discussion...

Thanks...

by bobo1 on 03/04/2008 10:54:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Who are you to come into MY house and start DEMANDING things?"

That's what I'm saying, and that's how I meant my own original reply.  Cenk owes him nothing.

Testify, MedfordTim!

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 03/04/2008 10:58:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]

This is an open forum. It is not the Cenk Uygur love feast.

The poster did ask a simple question, as far as I can see. I did not detect any blazing guns. He reprinted some things Cenk wrote, and asked for a clarification. Doesn't matter if they were written for the show or the Huffington post or a tiny student newspaper. They were meant for public eyes.

Has Cenk addressed this before? Maybe, but as a public figure he might have to get used to having his old words thrown back at him now and then. I don't know how the poster stumbled on these old rants, but having found them he has every right to ask about them. If Tim or anyone cares to defend Cenk they might provide a helpful link to one of his prior rebuttals. But they have no business shooting the messenger.

I know that perseverating on the fate of the long dead gets tiresome, but some people just can't give it up.

by ashbul on 03/04/2008 04:45:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Right. An open forum. Not a love fest, but the man deserves a little respect at his own site. He doesn't owe anyone anything.

How did he find them? It's called "Google." They both come up very quickly. And as of today, there are three entries I saw rather quickly highlighting "Cenk Uygur owes us explanation regarding Armenian Genocide"

Now, how does that look to someone who stumbles across it? It sounds like Cenk is personally being blamed for murdering Armenians.

That SUCKS, ashbul. It is not fair to Cenk and it is not fair to The Young Turks show. If ol' Atilla really wanted to know about Cenk and Armenians, why didn't he ask Ana???

Because that wasn't the point. Being an ass was. And your kind of being an ass saying he asked "a simple question". A simple question would have been "Does the name of the show have anything to do with World War One?" Or, Atilla could have clicked on the "About the Show" link and seen the definition prominently displayed there.

But, no.

He got exactly the response he wanted. Mea culpa.

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 05:09:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Man, I'm not getting it. I had to scroll to the top and reread Atilla's original words to see where you got the idea that he was on some kind of hunting expedition to bag the beloved Uygur. There's nothing there. Of course he Googled "Cenk Uygur" to see what came up. And was maybe a bit troubled by something he found.

Possibly the title he chose ("Cenk Uygur owes us explanation...") was too brazen, but I don't know why you think he's on some kind of anti-Turkish trip. This is nothing like that weird posting of a couple of months ago from someone who'd obviously never watched the show, demanding to know how "these young Turks" can face themselves in the mirror or whatever it said.

Also, I don't consider this to be Cenk's site; it is The Young Turks' site, and that is me and you as much as the Captain.

by ashbul on 03/04/2008 06:03:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's a quote about being excited over the current Dem primary.  It wasn't part of my post, except in that context, as is true of all sig files.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 03/05/2008 08:45:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]

...bercause Cenk has repeatedly addressed the issue and he really DOESN'T need to keep doing it every year.

If the poster was so adept at finding THESE two, he should have done a little bit more and found the rebuttals. They ARE out there.

Cenk is nobody's dancing monkey.

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 09:09:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
you've got time to write a post like that to an internet talk show - do you pick out turkish sounding names in the fking phone book and write them diatribes too?  He moved here when he was 8yrs old asshole! Give him a break, give it a rest, and get a life. Isn't there more productive things you can do w/ your time than demand apologies from people who weren't there about something that happened abt 100 yrs ago to people you never knew?

by 10sejed on 03/04/2008 12:18:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Did your mother raise you with any manners?

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 03/03/2008 05:32:21 PM EST


was Chers last CD

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 10:54:16 PM EST


Implying that her previous albums were good?

by Spencer on 03/03/2008 10:57:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ill be in Atlantic City at the Taj on Thursday and...

by MRFred on 03/04/2008 10:27:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]

MRFred is the opening act for "The Many Faces of Cher," starring the cast of Queer Eye....

Do you believe in life after luuuuuuuv...after luuuuuuuv...after luuuuuuuv...after luuuuuuuv...

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 10:45:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Cher and System of A Down, both suck balls. That being said,the Armenians gave the world Kim Kardashian.

On a more serious note. The fact of the matter is, the issue of the 1915 events is far from black and white, i.e. evil Ottoman Government vs innocent Armenians. Armenians committed atrocities themselves, even though this part of the history is often overlooked in the West. In any case this is something that should be left to historians to decide, not the U.S. Congress, sponcored by wealthy Armenian lobby.
 

by Rufat on 03/04/2008 12:24:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't be an idiot.

by al92lt1 on 03/04/2008 12:16:18 AM EST



Are we to infer from your choice of nicknames that you support hordes of barbarians overrunning nations and killing everything in sight? Isn't that what comes to mind with a name like "Attila The Hun?" Attila, known as "the epitome of cruelty and rapacity."

While the irony is hot, why would someone bitching about Turks name themselves after a Hun - who are themselves a Turkic people!

Self-loathing, much? Or just a hypocrite when it comes to throwing around accusations based on a nickname?

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 10:38:58 AM EST


Mr.Oregon, you seem too tense here, for one thing I never insulted anyone, unlike you...

Atilla the Hun is as ironic as The Young Turks, don't you think so? No? That's what I thought

Be productive instead, provide some links to those rebuttals you were talking about. The bottoms line is if Cenk evolved from his denialist past or not. If he did it has to be explicitly mentioned somewhere and easily accessable.

by atillathehun on 03/04/2008 07:13:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Your POST is an insult.

Don't bother gathering all the facts, just rush headlong demanding explanations.

The only answer you deserve is "go to hell."

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 09:08:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]

That all you got? The only facts Mr. Hun needs to gather are the words written not-so-very long ago by C. U. There is no burden on him to seek out a rebuttal.

To Tim: You seem way more interested in defending Cenk's sullied honor than determining whether he still believes the vile things he wrote. He is free to respond, though I don't want to read anything into his nonparticipation so far; I have no way of knowing if he even looks at these posts. Yes, he's no one's dancing monkey. But your willingness to do his dancing for him is not very dignified. Exactly what do you get out of it?

To those others who think Atilla is trying to blame Cenk for the historically factual Armenian genocide, or get him to apologize for actions that happened before he was born - you aren't paying attention. He merely wants Cenk to acount for things he said - he did say them, and if he stands by them today it does matter to some.

 

by ashbul on 03/04/2008 10:03:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Please post your home address so I can come over and demand answers from you about something you wrote 10 years ago. Before I get there, I will post copies all over town with a demand for an explanation.

I won't ask a civilized question; rather, I will form it in an accusatory tone to put you on the defensive. It will be up to you to repeat your answer over and over whenever someone new walks by and sees one of the accusatory copies. By that time, I will be back home, having moved on to other things while you are stuck for years answering the same questions because those copies never go away.

Sound like fun to you?

by MedfordTim on 03/04/2008 10:43:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't want to keep going around in circles here. You called Atilla's post accusatory, I don't see anything but neutrality. He even allows as how it seems quite likely that Cenk has changed his mind about the things he once wrote. He probably hopes so. I defend Atilla's right to ask about it. If it means Cenk has to keep answering the same question over and over - so sad! About something he wrote 10 whole years ago? Tender mercies! But he does sit behind that desk and ask us to listen to his views on a lot of topics, so I don't see why we're not allowed to check under the hood.

by ashbul on 03/04/2008 11:18:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]

There's a hell of a lot of this going on around here these days.

Cenk is Turkish, so HE owes us an explanation for Turkish politics of yore?

My fiance's parents are Japanese, so THEY are responsible for Japanese politics of yore?

Shee-it.  People got issues.

by OneHitKill on 03/04/2008 09:09:33 PM EST


I agree with everything Cenk said in the past and I do hope he did not change his mind. So bring it on Atilla!

check this out http://www.tallarmeniantale .com/

Happy now?

by Rufat on 03/04/2008 09:24:59 PM EST


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