Florida and Michigan got what they wanted

Email Print posted by Chargrad 03/05/2008 04:38:25 PM EST

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Disregarding the intricacies of what happened Florida and Michigan got the attention they wanted. 

How many times have we all heard about Florida and Michigan this primary season? True we haven't heard a word about the issues they care about but their elections can't stay out of the news. There is nothing close to an agreement on what will be done to solve the problem.

Who will remember the Vermont, Nevada, or Minnesota primaries? No matter the result the Florida and Michigan dilema will be remember for many election seasons to come.

< Clintonacracy | THE MANK IS BACK! >

Poll

What should be done?
Seat the delegates as they stand 8%
Make Super Tuesday 3 with Pennsylvania 8%
Screw them, don't seat the delegates or revote 41%
Revote. However it needs to be done just do it 41%

Votes: 34
Results | Other Polls
 Display:
Florida and Michigan got what they wanted | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 hidden)
It's a fundamental principle (none / 1)
Are we a nation of laws or of individual power?  Do we have rules or not?  Do the rules matter?

Florida and Michigan knew what the consequences would be when they broke the rules.   If some citizens of those states are unhappy with the result, they're complaints should be directed to their state parties, not to the national party.  Besides, they should have been paying attention from the beginning.  If those citizens who feel disenfranchised had been paying attention then they wouldn't be in this predicament.

Fix the problem for next time.  But changing the rules this late in the game is unfair to those who followed them.

by EveningStarNM on 03/05/2008 05:05:27 PM EST

Exactly (none / 0)
As someone put it this morning, revoting would be like asking the NY Giants to replay the 3rd quarter against the Packers because the Packers were unhappy with how the game turned out.

It's an absurd proposition.

by ihavenobias on 03/05/2008 05:13:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If they choose to revote, (none / 0)
all comers must be permitted to vote.  Plenty of people stayed home because they did not see the point of voting if the delegates were not going to be seated, and many MI voters voted for Clinton as Olama's name was not on the ballot.  All viable candid ates must be on the ballot with the opportunity to campaign.

On second thought, screw them.

by 1xx3xy on 03/05/2008 05:12:23 PM EST

Pissing and moaning (none / 0)
As if we have not heard enough. Now there are advocates out there in the gaseous mediasphere making claims that people are being disenranchised of their votes in these states, or worse still, being disriminated against (for whatever reason). Considering the original vote was bollooxed-up from the very beginning, and we don't need to point fingers, wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest just to have a re-do? If we don't, we will never hear the end of it... Just think Florida 2000, Ohio 2004...

by justbrewit on 03/05/2008 06:06:01 PM EST

A Redo With One Condition (none / 0)
That the state parties pay the entire cost of the revote.  The national party should not have to pay one red cent to those who chose to break the rules.  After all, the national party would be going out of its way to do the states a favor by recognizing the revote.

I have no pity whatsoever for those voters in Florida or Michigan who were not disenfrachised but who were, instead, simply either greedy or not paying attention.  Either through malice or laziness, they chose to have their votes not count.

by EveningStarNM on 03/05/2008 10:05:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The only way to a Happy Ending (none / 0)
is to have a cheap caucus or two. ;)

I admit, that's what I want because I'm behind Obama, but my God, in light of what Hillary's said lately, how can anyone be behind her?

by ihavenobias on 03/05/2008 10:09:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There are only two ways to handle this (none / 0)
1)-Ignore them, none of it counts.

2)-A do-over in the form of a caucus for both states. Yes I want Obama to win and that benefits him (although BTW, even if Hillary wins both states she STILL is unlikely to win pledged delegates), but is it fair for tax-payers of those states to finance more primaries?  That's bullshit, and I doubt they'd support it.

The bottom line is that the head dems in these states were idiots.  The whole point of moving up the primaries was to make them relevant, yet they did so knowing it would make them even LESS relevant.

by ihavenobias on 03/05/2008 06:35:20 PM EST

Obama (none / 0)

Obama needds 77% of the remaining delegates to close this thing...in otherwards Hillary + Kucinich + other + uncommitted can't get more than 23% of the remaining delegates or Obama will have to rely on at least some super delegates.

 

Not the best current scenario for Democrats especially considering Obama is polling even or even underpolling Hildabeast in national polling. 

by acroso on 03/05/2008 06:36:53 PM EST

will of the voters (none / 0)
The voters didn't create this mess.

How about this we count the popular vote decide this thing

by LORD FOUL on 03/05/2008 06:41:26 PM EST

Clinton (none / 1)

Clinton is behind by about 700,000.

 

 

If you count Fl and Mi she is 3000 behind.

 

 

But is she wins Pennsylvania and some others. That will probably be her chief claim if she can continue to close on popular vote. Then she's cite Florida and say she's winning the popular vote altogether...that is if she keeps up whatever momentum she has.

by acroso on 03/05/2008 06:58:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They got what they wanted. (none / 0)
Tell them to settle down, and be quiet. They wanted early voting, we warned them, they got it. Good for them. It's like the terrorists complaining to the United Nations that we are unfair in this fight.

by PresidentTyler on 03/05/2008 06:49:56 PM EST

I got this in the mail today... (none / 0)
Statement on Democratic Nominating Process

March 5, 2008 TALLAHASSEE - Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen L. Thurman issued the following statement today on the state of the Democratic nominating process as it relates to Florida:

"The Democratic primary gets more exciting by the day. The incredible enthusiasm for these two phenomenal candidates for President continues to prove that America wants a new direction - not a third Bush term with McCain.

"We thank Governors Crist and Granholm for supporting the effort to have the votes of more than five million Democrats and Republicans from Florida and Michigan recognized. In Florida, more than 1.75 million Democrats voted, and they deserve to be heard.

"Obviously, these primaries are the talk of the political world, and some are even suggesting that Florida hold a run-off election between the top two Democratic primary vote-getters, which happen to be Senators Clinton and Obama. However, this is not a time to panic or jump to any conclusions simply because the Republicans have a nominee.

"It is important to remember that the Democratic nominating process does not end until June 10. The Florida Democratic Party continues to work with our leadership, Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama and the Democratic National Committee to ensure this state is fully represented at the National Convention.

"We have discussed many things, ranging from the plans for the general election to a potential alternative primary to the process for appealing to the credentials committee of the National Convention to seat our delegates as currently allocated.

"It is important also that we are clear about one issue. At this time, no suggested alternative process has been able to meet three specific and necessary requirements: the full participation from both candidates, a guaranteed commitment of the millions of dollars it will cost to conduct the event and a detailed election plan that would enfranchise all Florida Democrats, including our military service members serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

"The Florida Democratic Party cannot consider any alternative that does not meet these requirements. Indeed, it is very possible that no satisfactory alternative plan will emerge, in which case Florida Democrats will remain committed to seating the delegates allocated by the January 29th primary.

"We continue to move ahead with preparations for an unprecedented coordinated general election campaign. The people of Florida, like most Americans, are eager for change - not more of the same from McCain - and in November, we will make the Democratic nominee the next President of the United States of America."

by MRFred on 03/05/2008 06:52:08 PM EST

2 Things (none / 0)
1)-What are your thoughts on this Fred?

2)-Who is the fool who voted for "seat the delegates as they stand"?  That's in the context of Hillary being the only one on the ballot in one of the two states.

Imagine if Burger King and McDonald's had a contest to see if America preferred the Whopper or the Big Mac (Whopper is better I know, but stick with me here).

And in one of the states both fast food giants agree not to campaign.  Yet McDonald's decides to keep the stands of Big Macs out for voters to eat, with no Whoppers in sight.  These hungry voters could either grab a Big Mac, possibly out of confusion, OR they could angrily vote "undecided" and go cook something at home, despite craving a good burger, or ANY burger at that point.

Of course most Whopper enthusiasts resented this ploy by McDonald's (especially since McDonald's now wants these votes to count for something), but Big Mac lovers are strangely quiet or supportive regarding the plan.

by ihavenobias on 03/05/2008 07:05:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I live in Michigan (none / 0)

And I wrote all of my reps and the governor and the damn Michigan Democratic party.

Three times.

Long before it came down to the wire and they screwed the pooch.

I am pissed and it's not my fault. I did everything short of driving to MDP headquarters with a baseball bat and an attitude.

I didn't "deserve" what I got. I agree that the MDP is at fault and not the NDP. The letter they sent back to me trying to explain their position was pathetic. They're not getting any donations from me this year.

I didn't vote. For the first time in more than 25 years... I didn't vote.

I want to vote. I hope they revote the whole thing. There is no logic behind using the existing delegates. It's either a complete revote or nothing. 

by peteplace on 03/05/2008 08:18:27 PM EST

Pete (none / 0)
Do you want primaries (funded with your tax dollars) or caucuses (funded by the party)?

Also, what do you think most people in MI think about that question?

There are pros and cons to both obviously, but I just assume most people are horrified by the idea of having to pay (literally) for such a dumb mistake.

by ihavenobias on 03/05/2008 08:22:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Not the FL Dems' fault. (none / 0)

I am a FL resident and a diehard Obama supporter, so this opinion does not come with pro-Hillary bias.

Basically, FL is a state with a Republican governor and a Republican majority state legislature. It was known that moving up the date would result in penalizing FL's Democratic delegates, but not the GOP delegates, and it was the state of FL's decision, not the FL Democratic party's. Yes, rules are important, and it is a bad precident to let states do whatever they want, ignore the rules and not be penalized, but it's also a bad precendent to let states controlled by one party make decisions that disenfranchise only the members of the non-ruling party. Considering no solution, barring time travel, is perfect, I think a revote, with plenty of time for each candidate to campaign, is the lesser of many evil solutions.

 
I cannot speak for Democraticly controlled Michigan, but if we both had to pay for a second election, I think that would serve as a national deterent to this kind of thing happening again.

Another way to deter this kind of thing is to look at the root cause, the motivation for what MI and FL did. That root cause was: they wanted their primaries to be relevant. Ironically, this year they would have been relevant anywhere on the primary calendar (at least the Dems would have been), but in most election years, only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and maybe five other states have any relevance. It's an argument that we should all have sympathy for. I don't like the idea of having a national primary day where all the states have contests on the same day. It locks out an unestablished, underfunded candidate from having any chance. A guy like Huckabee couldn't have pulled of a win like he did in Iowa on a national level, and it's good that nonestablishment, outsider candidate can have a shot. But I think we should have the order of the contests rotate every election cycle, with the first two or three contests always being small states. This could be part of a fixed rotation or a random selection. Either way would address this issue.

by Infidel on 03/05/2008 09:26:24 PM EST

FL &MI (none / 0)
Well here we are hearing about FL&MI.They jumped off the map of the primary's.Do to there party leader's,It's not right in any way to let them re-vote,Or seat them as they are.The dem's leader's broke the rule's,Just so they can feel more Important In the race.Now that make's them lame,And you (FL&MI) should re-place them "ASAP". They broke the rule's and you guy's will have to live with that.But hillary will not leave it alone,And in the end she will hurt the party's In Fl &MI ,And that's what you need to stop.So stop whinning and fix the mess the top dem's started,And stop blaming the Repub's for any of this mess,For they do not run our democartic party.And it must of been a dem leader that started this In the 1st place,Do it right 4 year's from now.

by tuna on 03/06/2008 10:19:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
FL Democratic leaders appear to be complicit (none / 0)
Here's a link:

Florida Democrats To Go With Jan. 29th For 2008 Presidential Primary

Two statements seem especially relevant:

"An additional factor in the leadership's decision was the concern that any date but January 29th would take our eyes off the prize and adversely affect the progress we've made toward winning the state for the Democratic nominee in 2008," Thurman added.

...

On Sunday, June 10, the Party's Central Committee - the management committee of the State Executive Committee - voted unanimously to submit a working Delegate Selection Plan that makes the state-run, January 29, 2008 primary binding.

On the other hand, there's this:

The state law that moved Florida's primary date was passed by a Republican-controlled state legislature with the support of a Republican governor. Though the Florida Democratic Party tried several attempts to stop it, we could not expect our Democratic legislators to vote against the final bill, which included vital paper trail legislation for Florida's elections.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/06/2008 11:12:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Breaking News (none / 0)
Michigan To Caucus?

by ihavenobias on 03/07/2008 11:27:25 AM EST

Florida and Michigan got what they wanted | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 hidden)
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