Florida and Michigan - What to do, What to do???

Email Print posted by bobo1 03/09/2008 12:57:09 AM EST

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OK people, time to stop bitching about what Florida and Michigan did, time to decide what should they DO NOW?

Roger Simon on Politico has a brief article giving several options on how the Democrats can solve the Florida/Michigan conundrum...

Here is the link:

http://www.politico.com/rog ersimon/

I would like to know your opinions as to how this can be solved. My opinion is=

They cant not do anything. Pissing off people in 2 states that size only lends them to Grandpa Death in November...

They cant let Michigan stand as is - Obama wasn't even on the fucking ballot!!!

They are running out of time for a revote - if it isnt set up until June something, thats 3 more months of destruction that we cannot recover... This is going to determine who gets in (along with the superdelegate voters who are all watching this problem very closely)

SO WHAT THE FUCK DO WE DO????

If you choose, lets talk about some realistic options here...ObamaBots and Hillarybeasts are all welcome :)
< Vote the Italian Way | Peace in Northern Ireland >

Poll

What should be done with Michigan and Florida Voters?
Screw em, thats what they get for living where people are stupid! 55%
Let em vote again... 27%
Seat them as is... 11%
Let Dr. "Quackers" Dean settle it in the smoke filled room... 5%

Votes: 18
Results | Other Polls
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Florida and Michigan - What to do, What to do??? | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden)
I say take off, nuke the sites from orbit. (4.50 / 2)
It's the only way to be sure.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/09/2008 12:30:38 PM EST

The thing that made your post hilarious (none / 0)
was the second part.

by ihavenobias on 03/09/2008 01:35:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We aim to please. (none / 0)
You aim too, please.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/09/2008 04:04:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
it is very important.. (none / 0)
everyone needs to understand that jsut because michigan and florida are states that have messed up delegates, doesn't mean they are in the same boat in this issue.  they are both very different situations and you can't just give the same solution to both of them.

by screenshotted on 03/09/2008 01:32:38 AM EST

OK, give a solution to each, then... (none / 0)
That wasn't hard, was it?

thanks...

by bobo1 on 03/09/2008 01:46:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't say "we" in this context... (none / 0)

It implies that you're a Democrat.

:)  Smile 

by Spencer on 03/09/2008 09:13:00 AM EST

Spencer... (none / 0)
What it should imply is that I dont want Grandpa Death as our next Commander in Chief...

Your man Obama is not going to win on the backs of "Democrats" alone...You need Independants and non Lefties, too...

Just because one isn't an "ObamaPhile" doesn't mean we aren't fighting for the same cause...I wish you Obama people would understand that...

If you dont understand, it will surely be your undoing...

Thanks :)

by bobo1 on 03/09/2008 01:04:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree (none / 0)
And the way to make sure the indies and the Reps come to join our side is to keep referring to our candidates supporters as "ObamaBots" "ObamaPhiles" "Kool Aid drinkers" "Obamamaniacs" and so on.  I'm with you bobo.

by Spencer on 03/09/2008 08:42:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Two Different Problems With No Solution (none / 0)
You haven't convinced me that we can't not do something.  People in those states will vote.  And if Dean can be seen as at fault for the problem, then voters won't blame the candidates and won't be motivated to not vote out of anger for being disenfranchised.

Of course, that argument only works if you haven't been paying attention and/or ethics is not a big motivating factor.  For those who have been paying attention and who really care about ethical issues, it's a nearly insoluble problem for this election cycle that must be addressed before the next one.

The problem in Florida, obviously, is that an unethical polictical party controls the fate of the other.  Republicans in the Florida legislature sabotaged the Democratic primary.  While it's possible to blame Florida voters for that outcome, since they voted for a corrupt government, that still leaves Democrats holding the bag.  Florida is a complicated problem, since many Florida voters apparently do not care much about ethics, and it may be impossible to prevent such occurrences in the future.  The national party obviously has no obligation to bear the cost of a second primary or substitute caucus, since it was the legislature who intentionally caused the problem.  The outcome of the original primary cannot be considered as representative, since the candidates did not campaign there.  It may be necessary simply to make the case that Republicans are at fault and leave it at that.

Michigan, on the other hand, is quite different and more clear: leading Democrats in the state got both greedy and stupid and decided that they didn't want to send delegates to the convention (they knew what would happen if they broke the rules).  Let them suffer for it.  It's an easy case to make.

by EveningStarNM on 03/09/2008 12:32:19 PM EST

Thank you, eveningstar... (none / 0)
I appreciate your lucid commentary on this matter...

How about some possible solutions? Do you agree with any of the 5 proposals from Simon at Politico?

Thanks for your reply...

by bobo1 on 03/09/2008 01:02:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Sorry. I should have been more explicit. (none / 0)

My recommendation was to follow Simon's first option: Ignore both Florida and Michigan.  Unfortunately, Simon's article falls short since he ignores the causes and the ethics of the problem.  A correct solution must acknowledge both.

A corrupt legislature and process in Florida may mean that the problem cannot be solved until the legislature changes parties.  In four years, a Republican legislature could move the primary up to December if they wanted to.  They could even deny all funds for primaries if they though it would help the Republican party to recapture the White House.

Michigan is different in that they can fix the problem or decide once again to not have their delegates counted.  Since Democrats have the necessary control to make the decision there, it's entirely in their hands.

The major benefit of this solution is that fewer people will be pissed off than if any of Simon's other solutions is employed.  The "Mulligan" option has lots of angry opponents because it includes Michigan.  And a lot of folks who understand what happened in Florida still think that Democrats there should bear the responsibility.  (For instance, I really don't understand how Florida Democrats could be so inept as to let Republicans keep winning elections there.  But then I don't understand why Democrats in Congress keep kissing Bush's ass, either.)

However, a mail-in vote for Florida might be feasible since it would be very inexpensive.  This has the advantage of righting a small injustice (Democrats are, after all, partly responsible for what happened there).  However, Florida Democrats must make the case that the corrupt legislature must pay for it, since they caused the problem.  The national party might, if it would embarrass the state, pick up the tab, but only under that circumstance.

Nevertheless, Michigan must be stripped of its delegates if ethics are to play any role at all in the delegate selection process.

by EveningStarNM on 03/10/2008 12:50:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Who pays? (none / 0)

I understand that cost is a factor, but I'm not sure if benefit has been properly considered. For example, I heard today that a Florida re-vote could cost around $6 million at a minimum.  How much of that cost would be offset by the economic stimilus that comes from hosting an immense, political spectacle? Probably more stimilus than Bush's tax rebate.

And consider the cause of the mess.  Both states wanted greater influence on the selection process; now they have a chance for far greater influence than they could have predicted. How much is that worth? A lot more than the January elections that seated zero delegates.

by Dogger on 03/09/2008 02:52:10 PM EST

Re: Who Pays (none / 0)
Since it seems the state Dem party officials in FL and MI screwed this up for the voters, it follows that they should bear responsibility for a re-vote or else resign from thier pary roles. I'd imagine they are going to lose their party roles anyway at the state conventions, due to their swaggering conduct.
 
I realize this sounds harsh, but if the Dem party members in FL and MI were too uninvolved/lazy to keep track of what the officials of their party were up to, then I really don't have a lot of sympathy for them. If you register as a member of a party, then you have to take up the responsibilities of membership. Disenfranchisement due to rule violations is the price you pay when you ignore your role of citizen or party member. I know I might not know everything that was going on at the top of my state Dem party, and I'd really be pissed right now if I were a MI or FL voter. But I wouldn't blame the opposition candidate or Howard Dean for the blunders of my state party officials.

by Verified1 on 03/09/2008 05:29:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You are correct (none / 0)

"But I wouldn't blame the opposition candidate or Howard Dean for the blunders of my state party officials."

Unfortunately, too many people who misbehave blame the cop rather than themselves.

by Dogger on 03/12/2008 12:32:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
RNC approach (none / 0)
RNC approach of stripping Flroida and Wyoming of 1/2 their delegates seemed to work better than the Howard Dean approach.

by acroso on 03/09/2008 03:57:21 PM EST

Only to an Idiot (none / 0)

by MRFred on 03/09/2008 06:23:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
FL and Mich knew the rules. Dean needs to enforce (none / 0)
It really gets under my skin that Fl and Michigan are crying.  They knew the price to pay and moved their primaries anyway.  Whether it was a republican legislature or not there was democratic support as well.  Surely, the people in these states can understand that there reps made the move and it is what it is see ya in the general election.  Anyone that call for these delegates to be seated has no ethics and obviously no concept of following the rules.  I would hate the superdelegates to decide the election but I can live with that because the rules have been in place and we all undrstood what they were.  This FL and Mich deal is totally bogus and making me rethink my party affiliation.  

by thera773 on 03/09/2008 06:32:48 PM EST

It's A Presidential Preference Primary Stupid (none / 1)
They cant not do anything. Pissing off people in 2 states that size only lends them to Grandpa Death in November...

Sure they can. I can't speak to Michigan but I can speak with some knowledge about Florida.

The Florida Democratic party was fully aware of the consequences of changing the date. 

No presidential primary, caucus, convention, or other meeting may be held for the purpose of voting for a presidential candidate and/or selecting delegates or alternate delegates to the national convention, prior to the first Tuesday of February in the year in which the national convention is held.

 What about NO didn't Florida understand? Apperently not enough..the politcos though Florida would be "more" relevant , more important. Instead Florida, (joined by the other village idiot, Michigan)...may have the distiction of fucking up two Decocratic Presidential hopefulls, first Al Gore and now either Clinton or Obama.

It wasnt a surprise. The Florida party was warned by the DNC...repeatedly...of what would happen. The idea was sent to the local Democratic committees (the counties )in May were they gave it a big thumbs up.

So, they did it anyway ( along with the Republicans ). Suprise, the DNC did exactly what they said they would do all along.

There is a lot of grousing about votes not counting and representation and the like surrounding this issue however these are Presidential preference primary elections. There is no provision for the role of political parties in the Constitution nor for  primary elections.

The party could make primaries nonbinding , or even eliminate them if they chose too. The parties are under no obligation to even have a primary other than the requirement established by the party rules.

Anyway, the idea of voter backlash is overblown as well, the people here aren't going to run vote for McCain because of what the state hacks did, nor are they going to take their ball and go home.

So in summary, the candidate that gets hosed can remember these two words : Joe Liberman 


by MRFred on 03/09/2008 07:12:13 PM EST

Absolutely Correct (none / 0)

But I do not believe that it is necessary for any candidate to get "hosed".  Any possible voter backlash against the candidates can easily be prevented by making sure that every Florida and Michigan citizen knows exactly what happened and who is responsible for it.  Let them loose their rath against their legislatures, because that's where it belongs.

P.S. I want Obama to win.  But as much as I distrust Clinton, I would not go so far as to liken her to Lieberman.  What a horrible thing to say!  Lieberman is the lowest kind of life form, and to say that Clinton is in anyway similar to him is going way too far.  Besides, I might have to vote for her in November.

by EveningStarNM on 03/10/2008 01:08:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
After all , Hillary said: (none / 0)
"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything."

-- Sen. Hillary Clinton, on New Hampshire Public Radio, dismissing the Jan. 15 Michigan presidential primary

by MRFred on 03/10/2008 10:46:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Florida and Michigan - What to do, What to do??? | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden)
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