McCain and the supply-side mythology II

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Due to the long length and trolling by some members which let the thread go totally off topic, I will restart a new thread. Academic, government sources ONLY!!! NO think-tanks!

Here are some quotes from an ACADEMIC source on the mythology of supply-side:



"During the 1950s, corporations paid about one-third of all income taxes collected by the government. Consequently, the tax burden on workers was relatively low. For example, the tax burden of a median-income worker household was only 10 percent in 1950 and 13 percent in 1959...In 1963 Kennedy slashed taxes on wealthy households and corporations...Workers did not immediately object to this redistribution of tax burden because unemployment was low and wages were rising rapidly, doubling between 1950 and 1970. Rising wages increased workers' ability to pay taxes, and this increased tax revenue" (Dickinson 142). 


Which is totally different from today, as Obama mentioned, real incomes for workers are actually lower today than they were at the begining of Bush's term. Ergo, the Bush tax cuts did not "trickle-down" to the working classes. Therefore, workers are losing, and Americans are experiencing a massive redistribution of income (this is only logical). How can we prove this? The GINI index, which measures income inequality in a country.


1980 (Reagan):34.7

1988 (End of Reagan's term):38.4

2001 (Bush): 46.3

2004: 46.4


Sources: US Census Bureau web 2/2005/Brandolini 1998


For a definition of the index: https://www.cia.gov/library /publications/the-world-fac tbook/docs/notesanddefs.htm l#2172


Proof that this regressive tax policy is done to redistribute wealth and buy off the poor:


"Reagan's budget director, explained, small tax cuts for worker-taxpayers enabled conservatives to pass large tax cuts for the rich: '[Small tax cuts] were always a Trojan horse to bring down the top rates' " (Dickinson 144). 


So if you are a worker, and a Republican you are either a complete fool, or completely ignorant. 


Source:

Dickinson, Torry D. and Robert K. Schaeffer. Fast Forward: Work, Gender, and Protest in a Changing World. Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers Inc. 

< Morons In PA | Worst debate ever. >
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BTW, many consider me the other troll... but dont mind them, they are getting their medication altered as we speak and will be back to normal shortly...

I usually dont jump into poll driven, numbers based economics discussions, so I wont be pulling out any facts or figures (or the Heritage Foundation), but I would like to ask a few questions of you... you seem like a smart kid...

1. How is Obama going to change the current system? Doesn't congress get to determine tax law?

My follow up to that is - Who controls congress? -
(imagine me raising my hands and jumping in my chair like my seventh grade students...) I know, I know!!!

Corporations who fund their campaigns!!!! Good luck getting that done!

OK, maybe I had just the one question, but I think its a valid point. We all know supply side Economics only benefits those at the very top... Trying to explain economics 101 to voters is a disasterous calamity that will never succeed...
So in lieu of that, could you tell us how Obama is going to provide healthcare and social security for all citizens without raising the taxes on everyone? I would really love to hear that one...

Thanks again for your time...

:)


by bobo1 on 04/17/2008 01:55:03 PM EST


Really.  Here and now.

What do you plan to do in the primary election (or think other people should do)?

What do you plan to do in the general election (or think other people should do)?

Why are you interested in a system that you think is entirely corrupt and completely intractable.  Can't you find a website somewhere where you can bitch about the laws of thermodynamics or gravity or something and save us the political nihilism? 

by ProfRich on 04/17/2008 03:00:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Here and Now...

I'm not here to sway people one way or another. I really dont care who you vote for - Thats one of the great things about being an American - you have your say and I have mine.

The primary is past me, and I am neither a registered Republican nor Democrat, and in Arizona, you have to belong to a party to vote, so I was left out because I chose to have an independent brain cell... This is why I put very little credence in Primary numbers - they only include the 10-15% who really pay attention, and leave out the majority of people (dont even start whining about "Prove it!" By What Poll" waa waa waa...) Polls are for ninnies who cannot think for themselves - Im afraid thats why many on this blog rely on them heavily... No worries about the AZ primary, I wouldnt select any of these fools anyway even if they let me...


In the general election, its none of your damn business who I vote for - Thats another great thing about being an American - I dont have to reveal my preference to anyone and be subjected to harassment and ridicule. I will say it wont be any of these people, since they do not represent my interests, directly at least... 

My interest in this forum and in the show is to initiate and provoke discussion (thoughtful or otherwise) It is only a few snobs like yourself who get their panties in a knot when someone disagrees with your opinion or states a belief without volumes of direct evidence to support it. I'm perhaps hoping that you will realize why Democrats tend to do poorly in Presidential elections - they dont listen to anyone but themselves.
 
You squash dissent and limit speech by intimidation and name calling - Some participants here are damn near Stalinistic in this respect, and then they wonder why people oppose their opinions and views ...


Im certainly not suggesting that you need to listen to me, but try to look beyond your own self rightousness for a few moments and smell some of the shit you're shoveling... Dont be such a whiny little ninny...

Anyway, my question to you is this - Why are you worried about it? - I was asking this Nick86 kid a question on economics. This didnt have anything to do with you...

Thanks for your time...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/17/2008 03:29:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

You have nothing to add.

You believe nothing can change.

You stand for nothing.

You think that everyone agrees with you except those who post explicitly otherwise.

You think that polls are completely unreliable and we should all just trust you that you know where people stand on every issue yet you think we are Stalinists.

You go to this site, log in and post multiple comments a day but think its strange that people respond to these posts.

You constantly tell people they are wrong but if someone questions what you believe they are "snobs" who are trying to "stifle your opinions".

The basis for this is that you just know they are wrong despite the fact that they are clearly working hard to educate themselves on the issues.

You get upset when people call you names but your favorite words are snob, Obamabots, elitists and kool-aid.

You are right.  I should leave you alone.  This is pointless. 


by ProfRich on 04/17/2008 03:47:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I add quite a bit - there are a lot of people who generate genuine discussion from mine and other threads... I think thats adding - It just isnt adding what you want...

I believe things can change. I believe change is the only true constant in the universe. I just dont think you guys are changing or capable of changing what needs to be changed, not in your present mindset anyway... you are too unwilling to adapt and listen to other opinions for true change...

I stand for myself, my children and my beliefs. I dont stand for things that dont concern me. I dont stand with you on many things, but that doesnt mean I dont have standards. And that doesnt mean we are not together in the fight for our future - we just take different paths to the same eventual truth...

I would be stupid if I believe everyone agrees with me. I think you would be stupid to think that everyone should think like you... That is a classic definition of snobbery and elitism... I certainly know on this site that I am in the minority of prevailing opinion, but thats OK...

I think polls are the tools of people who cannot think or derive opinions for themselves. Especially in this election season, polls are inaccurate and biased and should not be relied upon for forming individual opinions. News organizations and media outlets use excessive polling to generate news stories - and the sheep follow as they always do - not thinking for themselves...


I encourage people to respond to my postings. I like converstaion and banter. If I didn't, why would I bother subjecting myself to you and the others. I do this because I like to...


I give my opinion about comments and issues. If I tell them they are wrong, then in my opinion they are wrong. Are we to be so PC or so afraid to give honest opinions that we cannot tell someone when we disagree? Surely you wouldnt prefer to live in a soceity that stifles exchange and conversation...


As for knowing they are wrong, I really dont care if they are wrong or not - I am glad to see that people are interested and talking about these issues. The discussion and debate is what will move us forward. You are putting way too much analysis into my postings - cant we all just get along? :)


Im not upset by name calling. I work with 7th graders - Name calling really doesn't phase me - It is the Obama supporters and the elitist kool aid drinkers that get their pantiesd in a knot when I call names - thats something you and they will have to deal with... not me.


I dont need you to leave me alone. I want you to stop flaunting your supposed superiority upon myself and the rest of us. But you go ahead and do what you need to do... Im really not worried about it either way. You dont pay my bills, and I dont pay yours...


Thanks as always for your time...


:)




by bobo1 on 04/17/2008 04:14:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]

why people say you're actually a republican bobo. not that there's anything wrong with that. The sentiment that liberals are snobs and "stalinist" is not anywhere near the center. I know I'm taking it a little out of context there, but that's an obvious right-wing insult. And besides, as your own comment shows, its not as though you're above name-calling.

I think there are a lot of republicans watching the democratic race closely because they can't stomach what's happened to their party. I also think we should try to include these people in the conversation, because I for one don't have any interest in sharpening my views on people who agree with me, and secondly because Barack is right: this is a great opportunity to expand the party. Does that mean we need to become republican? no. just reasonable and engaging. As long as we can talk with people who recognize facts and data but are willing to disagree about what they mean we're on solid ground. To hell with the rest of'em

by hazmat on 04/17/2008 04:16:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have always considred myself a recovering Conservative - G W Bush cured me of my initial ailment, but as you have observed, I have yet to find a home among the other parties. Im certainly not a liberal, but I have resigned myself to accepting that a Liberal will most likely become president...

I thank you for your time and understanding - please read my response to the professor for further detail - people can call me what they will. I am here, and I am staying...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/17/2008 04:35:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You mean you arent going to use KenTx as your nic anymore?

by Chinese Democracy on 04/18/2008 12:44:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You have a lot of nerve complaining about nic switching.

by Twba on 04/18/2008 01:02:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Since I share my brain cell with Ken, could you refresh my memory as to how many nics you have? I cant count that high...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/18/2008 01:04:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
why wuld you post this...


Corporations who fund their campaigns!!!! Good luck getting that done!


Obama has 1.2mil donors.. thats not a corporation..

and explaining economics 101.. i think that ppl are getting the message whit them drowning in debt..

by Bungle on 04/17/2008 04:58:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I'm a huge huge Obama supporter, but its a misconception that he takes no corporate funding. Someone posted here a couple weeks ago a link to a webpage with a breakdown of financial support for each candidate by industry and it was a real eye-opener. (If anyone can point to it that would be awesome) He takes less than Hillary, true, but only by fractions.

To play devil's advocate, Obama is a genius for fundraising the way he has. But would he turn down corporate checks if he needed them to beat Hillary? 

by hazmat on 04/17/2008 05:42:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Many corporations make donations to all sides.  They want to grease every side of the wheel, just in case.  In every race where I've looked at the money, you'll often see the same companies paying money to both sides.  You can tell which candidate a company really favors by the amounts they donate.  They're hedging their bets, that's all, they want a stake in the pot.  Candidates take the money, they'd be fools not to.  What matters is where the bulk of the funds come from. 

by bfaul on 04/17/2008 10:06:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is a spectrum.  Hillary has taken more from the healthcare and defense industries than any other candidate, and it's been that way for some time (including Republicans).

IMO, it's a minor point to say "they all take money".  The conversation needs to focus on these 3 things:

1)-How much money?

2)-From who?

3)-What impact might this have on specific legislation and agendas?

Hillary is very hawkish for a Democrat (did you hear what she said about Iran/Israel last night? Talk about scary), so the fact that she's also taken that much money specifically from the defense industry in light of our current situation in the world is, well, something to worry about.

And considering the state of healthcare and the need for serious reform, that's another huge concern.  I'm not saying Obama won't be influenced in some way, but he's taken a lot less money overall and again, I look at the key industries involved.

Finally, we have to keep this in the context of the fact that Obama has shattered the previous record for most individual donors. He's showing people that public financing is a viable option. Plus his short senate record backs up the idea that he wants to clean up dirty money. And his BluePrint for change also discusses publicly funded elections.

Does Hillary give ANY indication that she might do the tiniest thing on these issues?  I could add that Bill Clinton did NOTHING to reduce the number of lobbyists in Washington.  Reagan opened the floodgates, Clinton didn't close them and Bush, well, you can guess what he did.

There were less than FIFTY registered lobbyists before Reagan took office, about 17,000 when Bush Jr. took office and about 33,000 (give or take) today.

by ihavenobias on 04/17/2008 10:54:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

er, if this was intended for me, I think you're basically agreeing with me, aren't you? why would a corporation "hedge its bets" if that didn't mean something?

Look I'm one of what bobo calls "the kool-aid drinkers" when it comes to Obama, but he ain't my uncle. Cast your vote with eyes wide open. I disagree with your statement that what matters is "where the bulk of the funds come from". You think it matters to democrats that republicans give anywhere from 60/40 to 90/10? Ahahahhhaaaaa.

Cenk has been hammering this point and he is 1000% right. Follow ze money lebowski!!!

They're in a survival game. Buying politicians is a market like any other, and the only thing ratios suggest to me (a priori) is that one candidate (or party) can be bought cheaper than the other. Put a couple thoughts behind it.

I say this with all due respect to bfaul, the writer of the flat out best post I've seen on this forum, here. I couldn't have put better myself dude.

by hazmat on 04/18/2008 02:01:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"give" with "get" in the 2nd paragraph above and it makes better sense. hurk.

by hazmat on 04/18/2008 02:05:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]

"er, if this was intended for me, I think you're basically agreeing with me, aren't you?"

Yes, basically I am.  I only meant to add the point that they all get some of their money from corporations, oftentimes many of the same corporations.  The well healed companies cover all of their bets, even people that they consider opposition.  I was surprised to find that this was true.  It was pointed out to me in the '80s by someone I knew very well who ran for congress.  He showed me the donor lists, which were not as accessible at the time as they are now.  With the internet you can now easily see what companies donate to who and so it's really easy to verify.  They simply give a lot more to their favorite, and they always throw in something to the likely winner (Well, the big boys at least).  The most crucial thing for me about Obama's list is the sheer number of individual people who are kicking in for him, this was true even before he lead.  Those donations come from the heart (or at least they are less cynical than the corporate donations).  So I am essentially agreeing with you that there are no viable candidates who don't take corporate money.   I would think him foolish if he refused it.

by bfaul on 04/18/2008 11:31:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the compliment.   I missed it the first time I read your reply.  Thanks alot.

by bfaul on 04/18/2008 11:40:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
    "1. How is Obama going to change the current system? Doesn't congress get to determine tax law?"

No one man is capable of changing a system, it is really all dependent on the circumstances that surround him and how he uses those circumstances to his advantage. For instance, FDR used the Depression to change the American system using the rhetoric of the New Deal. Reagan did the same thing, beginning the destruction of the New Deal welfare state. Obama, may also come into power in a time of crisis, and if he can use his rhetoric skills appropriately, he can change the discourse in American politics. Indeed, Obama is saying some pretty liberal things and people are buying it.

For instance in the debate yesterday, he argued that affirmative action should be based on class not race! Very, very progressive and a step in the right direction imo. Obama is here to save American capitalism from its own excesses, and since capitalists cannot think in the long run, the government has to set the agenda for them and the rules for accumulation. I think in general, there is a emergent discourse about the inequities in American society with the attacks against ridiculous CEO pay.

What needs to change in America is that people have to remember that they belong to classes, and that there is class warfare all around them. What do you think Bush has been? American's have to be much more critical of their lives than they are.

"So in lieu of that, could you tell us how Obama is going to provide healthcare and social security for all citizens without raising the taxes on everyone?"

Why raise it on everyone? Taxes are too low for too many as it is. American's do not realize how little they pay in taxes, come to Canada. Nevertheless, you will never find a majority of Canadians wiling to give up free healthcare, subsidized education, etc. for a bigger cheque. American's have a choice to make, a welfare state, or a market state.

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 04/17/2008 03:02:49 PM EST


I appreciate your time in this matter...

I dont know how popular the "Americans aren't taxed enough" line will go over down here, but I can see where you are coming from... We do need to make a decision about what kind of country we want to be - and that is not a question that is answered easily...

Thanks again

:)

by bobo1 on 04/17/2008 03:31:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You made the crucial point that capitlalists (by which I mean those who control the capital) can't think long term.  To this must be added capitalists can only understand the economy in the micro.  They have no conception of the macro.

by ProfRich on 04/17/2008 03:32:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Capitalists are not stupid, they know the long term consequences of their actions. Their interest is in short-term profit, to satisfy their shareholder, no not the average stockholder, but the institutional shareholders. The government plays the role of regulating the "animal spirits" as Keynes called it. They cannot look long-term because their interests are in the short-term, and we see that now with the lack of government oversight with the mortgage crisis. Marx was right when he said the government is really the central committee for capitalists, because they need it to be to secure accumulation. However, my political economic ideas are a bit more radical than I think most ppl can handle so I'll leave it at that.

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 04/17/2008 03:42:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
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