I'm getting discouraged!

Email Print posted by jawill11 04/30/2008 10:14:22 AM EST

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My favorite quote from George Carlin is, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are dumber than that."  This is what has been running through my head for the last 2 days as the Bush administration is not-so-subtly taking us down the well worn path towards war with Iran. 

The lame reasons the administration is trotting out do not surprise me at all.  They are the product of months and even years of lies, spin, and BS.  There is the claim that Iran will destroy Israel with their nuclear bombs.  Forget the fact that they have no bomb, there is no evidence that they are making a bomb, and they have not actually threatened Israel with destruction.  Also forget the fact that they are not stupid enough to actually bomb Israel with this non-existant nuclear weapon because they know that Israel has their own nukes that they would send over to Iran before the first bomb landed. 

There is also the claim that Iran is sending weapons and fighters over to Iraq to fight US troops.  There is also no actual evidence of that happening, either.  All we have is the word of the Pentagon that this is happening.  All that "evidence" they have is top secret, we'll just have to trust them. 

Because of this "evidence", and because they finally got rid of that stick-in-the-mud Admiral Fallon, the Pentagon is sending another aircraft carrier into the gulf and openly drafting plans for this war.  Who wants to bet that they are not drafting plans for the aftermath?

All of these things are not what has me discouraged.  I expected them.  I also expected the media to go along with them again, which they are happily doing.  I am a bit shocked that they have been bold enough to bring on their "military experts" to hype the war mere days after they were caught using these people who were paid by defense contractors and coached by the Pentagon to hype the Iraq war. 

What really gets me discouraged, and what is the reason for the George Carlin quote that I started with, is the fact that the American people are apparently stupid enough to go along with this again.  We haven't even begun to clean up the mess from the last war.  In fact, we're not only making it messier by the day, we're considering electing a man who wants to not clean it up but speed up the destruction.  I am discouraged that we are only five years out from the run up to the Iraq war and these SAME EXACT talking points that were used then are being recycled now, even though they were proven false then and now and we are seeing the disasterous results every day in Iraq.  In spite of that, the American people are apparently willing to buy the whole thing again, hook, line, and sinker. 

What is it going to take to make the American people wake up and start paying attention, or are they even capable of doing so any more? 

< Policies of Tyler Sutherland (Me) for Politics | Words From A Black Pastor >
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I'm getting discouraged! | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
easy (none / 0)
$10.00 oil.  That'll get their attention, I promise.

by bfaul on 04/30/2008 12:02:16 PM EST

correction (none / 0)
Make that $10.00 gasoline.  Damn these trigger happy fingers.

by bfaul on 04/30/2008 12:03:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Welcome to the club! (none / 0)
I'm not a drinker but I hear that helps dull the pain...

by MedfordTim on 04/30/2008 12:09:35 PM EST

Unfortunately... (none / 0)
You and George Carlin are right - the American people are stupid enough to fall for it again...

The problem and the difference between this situation and Vietnam is the lack of the draft - When it hits more Americans and their families, then the revolt will begin - This Iraq war, even with all of its coverage in the media and atrocities, still isnt a personal war to most Americans - We have not been affected like we were in Vietnam - its a sad commentary, but unfortunately true...

If they go into Iran fully, they would almost have to impose a draft - and that will bring all of this crashing down as it did for Vietnam in the 70s... People will not stand for it...

They better not stand for any of this anymore - but like you said, Americans are that stupid...

This is the reason I would vote for Democrats - opposition to a potential draft...

:I

by bobo1 on 04/30/2008 12:24:47 PM EST

Draft (none / 0)
Do you think it's inevitable?

by jarett on 04/30/2008 04:30:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If McCain wins (none / 0)

There seem to be two options.

Draft

or

Mercenary Army.

Its unclear to me why Ken thinks a mercenary army is such a great idea.  We have all seen this movie before.  What happens when you become dependent on a mercenary army?

You get your ass kicked by your own army and become their bitches the minute they get richer and more powerful than you.

It's called "the Roman Empire".  People who support this insanity should look into it. 

by ProfRich on 04/30/2008 05:36:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"I have a dream!" (none / 0)
"Its unclear to me why Ken thinks a mercenary army is such a great idea." 

I continue to hold out a small, faint candle of hope that if American Blackwater was fighting al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Iraq, that liberals like you might actually cheer for the American team for a change.

Maybe we could turn it into a reality TV show, if it would somehow increase your support of the battle against Islamic Extremists?

When one of our highly paid, highly trained, highly motivated mercenary combatants goes down in a fight, while struggling to the death against the forces of Islamic Jihad Tyranny, perhaps you might say a kind word for him.

Think of it as American Gladiators, only with much higher stakes. Their lives and your freedom are on the line. Keeping your head attached to your body is on the line.

I'm trying to find a way to appeal to the GenX morons in the audience, because there is no logical side of your brain to communicate with.

Of course, these ideas are ridiculous and farcicle from the starting blocks, but I'm growing exasperated and weary with you Anti-American people.

by KenTX on 04/30/2008 06:00:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
appeal to GenX morons (none / 0)

here's a tip. don't call'em morons.

I wouldn't mind rooting for Blackwater mercenaries in Afghanistan, but we don't know how many there are, or how many have died, or what their mission is. That's because they aren't accountable to anyone or any entity. They are currently operating outside of any law that I'm aware of, thanks to your favorite foreign policy architect, Rummy. This lawless state of affairs is fundamentally unamerican.

I have always been a supporter of the invasion of Afghanistan, and most liberals (not all, but most) legitimately agree with the action that was taken. Most of us also don't understand the move to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by invading Iraq, thus leaving Afghanistan vulnerable to a grinding Taliban insurgency and opening Iraq and the region to Iranian hegemony. So how do you reach the conclusion that we don't support our fighters? Its a dumb policy. By the way many members of the military also think it's a dumb policy.

Rich's point about the roman army is devastating. Have you given any thought to that at all? Seriously this issue ought to be beyond conservative or liberal, but as an advocate of limited government and individual liberty (you are, aren't you?) how do you give Blackwater a pass? What if they decide they need to expand? Do they look to foreign governments for contracts? What part of that scenario is acceptable to you? I'm already sorry I asked.

by hazmat on 04/30/2008 06:20:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Farcicle and ridiculous is right! (none / 0)
That pretty much sums up your post. 

Exactly what is American about paid mercinaries breaking American laws, Military Code, and local laws without consequences?  If you call that American, that is one disgusting viewpoint.

Also, what part of the occupation of Iraq has to do with our freedoms? 

Finally, I must have missed when al Qaeda was actually in Iraq.  I know that was the oft-debunked talking point, and I know Gramps gets a little confused when he misses his meds and thinks that they are there and in Iran, but that doesn't make it true. 

Yup, ridiculous and farcicle is right on the money.

by jawill11 on 04/30/2008 06:32:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
smacking down a fool (none / 0)
"I must have missed when al Qaeda was actually in Iraq." 

There are a lot of things that you've missed. This is simply one more example.

This BBC News report was posted just a few hours ago. I could provide about 50,000 links with similar evidence, but you're hardly worth the time and effort.

"In Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, according to the report, al-Qaeda remains "the greatest terrorist threat to the United States and its partners".


Why don't you get some education before you attempt further contributions to the board?

by KenTX on 04/30/2008 07:22:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Man, you sure are pathetic (none / 0)
Really?  That's your big smackdown?  The BS State Dept. report that your linked article referred to also said that Iran is the biggest state sponser of terrorism.  The only other countries listed in the report as state sponsers of terrorism are Cuba, Syria, North Korea, and Sudan.  That pretty much is all I need to say to prove that this report, and your ignorant argument, are laughable. 

I'm thinking of a country that is conspicuously off this list.  I'll give you some hints: it has been supplying insugents in Iraq FAR more that Iran ever has.  It has actually housed and supported al Qaeda.  It starts with S and ends with audie Arabia.  But I guess Cuba is a much bigger threat according to our brilliant State Dept. 

Bottom line is that there is no proof and no respectable, independent source that will claim a link between Iraq and al Qaeda.  Everybody who pulled their heads out of the sand sometime in the past five years knows this.  What's your excuse?  What a joke.

by jawill11 on 04/30/2008 09:32:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Let me remind you of your exact quote. (none / 0)
"I must have missed when al Qaeda was in Iraq."

Remember this guy? Here's a before and after photo.
zarqawi
In the words of John McCain, "I have news for Senator Obama. Al-Qaeda is in Iraq. And that’s why we’re fighting in Iraq, and that’s why we’re succeeding in Iraq."


Q: How many Islamic Jihadists have been killed in Iraq?

A: Try 19,000.

Now if 19 Islamic Jihadists were able to do a trillion dollars worth of damage to the U.S. economy in 2001, how much damage could 19,000 terrorists do? What is one thousand trillion? A quadrillion?

A couple of years ago, one of the favorite story lines promoted by the mainstream media were the overwhelming number of foreign fighters invading Iraq to battle American forces.

These fighters were being recruited from as far away as Europe.

The press breathlessly maintained headcounts describing who these people were and where they came from.

They were sneaking across the border from Saudi Arabia and Syria by the thousands.

Iraq was becoming a magnet for jihadists from across the nation of Islam.

Al Qaeda was conducting a giant campaign to recruit young fighters and insert them into Iraq to battle the infidel.

The origin of foreign fighters was analyzed in excruciating detail.

And then a miracle happened. The liberal press quit talking about foreign fighters in Iraq. In fact, they started going out of their way to ignore and even deny the presence of foreigners operating within Iraq. What happened? Did we finally kill all of the foreigners? Did we seal the borders to prevent the influx of additional fighters?

Or did the story line become inconvenient and counter-productive to the goals and objectives of the liberal dinosaur media? Did the press finally figure out that Americans believe killing Islamic jihadists in Iraq is a good way to keep them from coming to America?

So American forces have killed almost 20,000 militants in Iraq. How many of the dead fighters came from outside of Iraq? It’s difficult to develop an accurate number because we can’t ask them. However, a good estimate might be something like “one hell of a lot”.

You have to hand it to the press. They are as adaptive in battle and committed to their cause as al Qaeda. In fact, their objectives are not that far removed from those of al Qaeda.

But here’s an article that appeared a couple of months ago. As hard as you might try to google on the subject, you will not find a more current assessment of the situation on the ground.

“The Army's Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, the analyzed and made public last month documents that have led the U.S. military in Iraq to reassess some of its earlier assumptions about the insurgent group and those who carry out most of the suicide missions that are its signature method of attack.

[They studied] individual records of 606 foreign fighters who entered Iraq between August 2006 and August 2007. The cache of documents was discovered last fall by U.S. forces in the northern Iraqi town of Sinjar.
Based on the Sinjar records, U.S. military officials in Iraq said they now think that nine out of 10 suicide bombers have been foreigners, compared with earlier estimates of 75 percent. Similarly, they assess that 90 percent of foreign fighters entering Iraq during the one-year period ending in August came via Syria, a greater proportion than previously believed.”

I don’t care what name you want to give to “Al Qaeda in Iraq”, but it appears that the terrorists who are blowing people up are foreign jihadists.

by KenTX on 05/01/2008 05:56:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yawn (none / 0)

Ken's troll recording has looped back around to the beginning.  We have been through all this before.  It seems like Ken got his ass kicked and then started talking about Juanita Brodrick or Vonce Foster or the Carter presidency or some shit.

This is the song that never ends....

by ProfRich on 05/01/2008 09:33:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I have to correct you (none / 0)
His fall back guy isnt carter its Bill Clinton

by Chinese Democracy on 05/01/2008 01:39:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Personally (none / 0)
I would like to see the 50,000 links with similar evidence.  Please number them for ease of counting.

by ProfRich on 04/30/2008 11:59:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
awww poor weary little troll (none / 0)
growing weary are ya?

see ya wouldn't wanna be ya

There is really no reason to respond to  any of your other idiotic points since Cenk already discussed them.

by Chinese Democracy on 04/30/2008 07:18:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ken's Patriotism (none / 0)

First off, what makes you think me or anyone else blasting you watches reality TV?  I don't.  Others here might but this is just part of your bizarre inability to seperate the things you have contempt for.

Now let me run you through a couple of "why we don't want a mercenary army" arguments in detail.

Imagine a few years down the road.  President McCain  has his mercenary army move into the next stop on the Blood for Oil tour but it just so happens that this oil field is one the Chinese have thier eye on.  Now you have to understand that as bad as our debt situation is now it will be worse by some multiplier a few years into Grampa Death's term.  Recall this is a man who is calling for over a trillion dollars in tax cuts for the rich and, as of yesterday, over a trillion dollars in his "health care" plan plus the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, the new one in Iran and the vague promise of "more wars".  He is going to pay for all this by cutting 60 Billion (with a b) in earmarks (except for the aid to Israel, and the aid to vets and any other program he has been asked specifically about that is paid for by earmarks).

Now imagine we go to pay our mercenary army to fight in this new war against China and turn to get the money (which we sure as hell don't have) from the.........

CHINESE!

They say no.  Call up the CEO of Blackwater, offer to pay him the interest on our debt to the Chinese to kick our ass.  Ken has to learn Cantonese.

Scenario two.  You are in Houston right?  Do you have a daughter?  Lets say she is honored to go work with the great American heroes of our contractor war machine.  And she is furthered honored to be drugged and brutally gang raped by them.  Then she is absolutely beautified by being locked in a train cargo container for a few weeks and occasionaly raped some more.  When she finally escapes and comes home to daddy Ken, you are told our mercenary army and its supply lines are subject to no law and can't be sued, can only be arbitrated against.  Now you really feel like you need to comfort your traumatized beautiful little child but you can't.  You got to run to the TV to catch tonights episode of Mercenaries: America's Heroes.  She can wait, she waited long enough in that cargo car, right? 

Do you know that poor girl from Houston? Any of her family?  They live in your town.  If I send you their name will you help them understand the glory of our mercenary army who is under no jurisdiction?

Maybe you can use your awesome arguin skills to get through to these "Anti-American" "morons" with "no logical side to their brain"?

Or what Ken, when you think about that girl is it just omelettes and eggs motherfucker, gimme my tax cut!

Viva la Tax Cut! 

by ProfRich on 05/01/2008 01:30:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
know hope, jawill11 (none / 0)
The same talking points and the same lies were being trotted out before the '06 election. Remember that? The same campaign smears were being used, running ads with wolves and pictures of Osama. Forget what Karl Rove said about corruption, because that was just icing on the cake.
I have yet to meet a republican that looks at that 3 trillion dollar bill and thinks, "hey that was a great idea, let's keep doing it", even if they can stomach the neocon strategery. Its the ultimate tax hike. So when you watch these smug bastards on Faux News Sunday, spinning their garbage, try to remember the wailing coming out of the republican camp in fall '06 "we're throwing everything we got at'em, but nothing seems to stick, wah wah". The only reason the wright thing gets any traction is because a democrat is legitimizing it. The political dynamic remains roughly unchanged, except that Bush has become more unpopular since the midterm election, and the republican brand even less palatable to voters. There's no sign that republicans remember the 60-40 margins that were handed to them by the public in '06. I asked a hard-core republican uncle how he felt about our impending invasion of Iran recently, and he dismissively said "Dick Cheney's an asshole". Many republicans hate Bush by now, but just can't believe that he would do something so wreckless. I'm telling you buddy, the tide of public opinion is overwhelmingly against these guys in ways we haven't seen in our lifetime. Just because the media is failing to report it doesn't mean the anti-bush sentiment doesn't exist. If you want to be discouraged about something, be discouraged that the democratic party is falling down in its patriotic duty to hold these people to account. They are complicit, and they are enablers. It is time to recognize that they are nearly as guilty for their malfeasance as the Republicans they replaced in that unfulfilled promise of election 2006.

by hazmat on 04/30/2008 01:26:18 PM EST

Could be wrong (none / 0)
But I suspect there is some truth in this.  I think their is some chance that the Republicans have the press but the Dems have the people.  This reminds me of the early 90s in reverse where the press was telling one story but the people were living another.  It gave way to the rise of the right wing noise machine that is now collapsing.  It veered the country to the right.  There is some chance this is happening again.  Ken sounds exactly like the defenders of the MSM did in, say 1993 just with all the issues reversed.

by ProfRich on 04/30/2008 01:41:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree with you two (none / 0)
with regards to the 08 elections.  I think it will be a banner year for the dems, and hopefully that will help to shift the media away from the disaterous alternate universe they are living in now.  What really discourages me is that all signs point to an Iran attack before November.  The admin will do this to make sure it is done before the adults take over, and to try to swing the election in favor of the repubs. 

I agree that the media is a major player in this tragedy, and they will not change until they are forced to by a groundswell after November.  Similarly, I think the dems in congress will not do anything until after November.  Finally, the vast majority of the public do not care and are woefully uninformed, and I still think a large percentage are dumb enough to vote for McCain if we are in a war with Iran come November.  Hence, my discouragement.

by jawill11 on 04/30/2008 02:29:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
At last, the truth comes out. (none / 0)
This is an interesting post.

"This reminds me of the early 90s in reverse where the press was telling one story but the people were living another. Ken sounds exactly like the defenders of the MSM did in, say 1993 just with all the issues reversed."
Are you saying the the mainstream media had a pronounced liberal bias in 1993, and yet the voting public was much more conservative in political philosophy? Well, I suppose that the 1994 election provided the answer to that question, but I'd still like to hear you admit it. You must have been in your last year at UT? That must have been quite a kick in the teeth for such an idealistic young liberal?


"It gave way to the rise of the right wing noise machine that is now collapsing.  It veered the country to the right. There is some chance this is happening again."
What is happening again? Is the country veering to the right? Is the right wing noise machine transcendent?

by KenTX on 04/30/2008 05:04:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Somewhere in the multiverse you are right (none / 0)
Just not here.

by hazmat on 04/30/2008 05:12:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Two answers (none / 0)

I think the media did a poor job expressing what conservatives were thinking and feeling in the early 90s.  That is much different than saying the reporting was slanted.  The first refers to commentary the second to fact gathering and presenting.  I know conservatives are completely incapable of seperating the two.

A big thing to understand is liberals believe fact reporting should be unbiased, conservatives belief "fact reporting" should be propaganda.  In that sense, yes we had a liberal media.

As to the second point I say before and after the quote "with the issues reversed" so what you have done is just typical childishness on your part. 

by ProfRich on 04/30/2008 05:44:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I really liked this post (none / 0)

"They are complicit, and they are enablers."

And how.  Not all of them, but far too many. 

by bfaul on 04/30/2008 01:42:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm getting discouraged! | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
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