Why Hillary Clinton should be winning

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By Sean Wilentz

April 7, 2008 | The continuing contest for the Democratic presidential nomination has become a frenzy of debates and proclamations about democracy. Sen. Barack Obama's campaign has been particularly vociferous in claiming that its candidate stands for a transformative, participatory new politics. It has vaunted Obama's narrow lead in the overall popular vote in the primaries to date, as well as in the count of elected delegates, as the definitive will of the party's rank and file. If, while heeding the party's rules, the Democratic superdelegates overturn those majorities, Obama's supporters claim, they will have displayed a cynical contempt for democracy that would tear the party apart.

These arguments might be compelling if Obama's leads were not so reliant on certain eccentricities in the current Democratic nominating process, as well as on some blatantly anti-democratic maneuvers by the Obama campaign. Obama's advantage hinges on a system that, whatever the actual intentions behind it, seems custom-made to hobble Democratic chances in the fall. It depends on ignoring one of the central principles of American electoral politics, one that will be operative on a state-by-state basis this November, which is that the winner takes all. If the Democrats ran their nominating process the way we run our general elections, Sen. Hillary Clinton would have a commanding lead in the delegate count, one that will only grow more commanding after the next round of primaries, and all questions about which of the two Democratic contenders is more electable would be moot.

Unlike the Republicans, the Democrats in primary states choose their nominee on the basis of a convoluted system of proportional distribution of delegates that varies from state to state and that obtains in neither congressional nor presidential elections. It is this eccentric system that has given Obama his lead in the delegate count. If the Democrats heeded the "winner takes all" democracy that prevails in American politics, and that determines the president, Clinton would be comfortably in front. In a popular-vote winner-take-all system, Clinton would now have 1,743 pledged delegates to Obama's 1,257. If she splits the 10 remaining contests with Obama, as seems plausible, with Clinton taking Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana and Puerto Rico, and Obama winning North Carolina, South Dakota, Montana, Oregon and Guam, she'd pick up another 364 pledged delegates. She'd have 2,107 before a single superdelegate was wooed. You'd need 2,208 to be the Democratic nominee. That would leave her barely a hundred votes shy, and well ahead of Obama. It is almost inconceivable that she would fail to gain the required number of superdelegates easily. No more blogospheric ranting about Clinton "stealing" the nomination by kidnapping superdelegates or cutting deals at a brokered convention.

But Clinton does not now have 1,743 delegates. According to CNN estimates, Clinton has about 1,242 pledged delegates to Obama's 1,413. Most of that total is based on the peculiar way that delegates are apportioned in 2008. Some of it is because Obama's backers are using the same kind of tactics as George Bush's camp used in Florida in 2000.

Crucially, Team Obama doesn't want to count the votes of Michigan and Florida. (And let's note that in a winner-take-all system, Clinton would still be leading in delegates, 1,430 to 1,257, even without Michigan and Florida.) Under the existing system, Obama's current lead in the popular vote would nearly vanish if the results from Michigan and Florida were included in the total, and his lead in pledged delegates would melt almost to nothing. The difference in the popular vote would fall to 94,005 out of nearly 27 million cast thus far -- a difference of a mere four-tenths of 1 percentage point -- and the difference in delegates would plummet to about 30, out of the 2,208 needed to win. Add those states' votes to the totals, and take a sober look at Clinton's popular-vote victories in virtually all other large states, and the electoral dynamic changes. She begins to look like the almost certain nominee.

The exclusion thus far of these two vital states has come about because of an arbitrary and catastrophic decision made last year by Howard Dean and the Democratic National Committee. Two democratic options are available to clean up the mess: Either relent by including the existing Michigan and Florida results or hold new primaries there.

Yet in this, as has happened more than once this primary season, the Obama camp's reaction has not been to clean up the mess the party has created, but to benefit from it. Given the original primary outcomes in Michigan and Florida, Obama has rejected the idea of certifying the results. Although Obama's supporters conducted a stealth "uncommitted" campaign in Michigan after he voluntarily removed his name from the state ballot, and even though, contrary to DNC directives, his campaign advertised in Florida, Clinton still won both states decisively. This leaves open the option of holding new primaries in both states. National and state party officials have announced that such revotes could be conducted.

Yet the Obama campaign has stoutly resisted any such revote in either state. In Michigan, Obama's supporters thwarted efforts to pass the legislation necessary to conduct a new primary. In Florida, campaign lawyers threw monkey wrenches to stop the process cold, claiming that a revote would somehow violate the Voting Rights Act, and charging that a proposed mail-in revote would not be "fraud proof." (Obama himself, it's important to note, proposed a bill in 2007 to allow for mail-in voting in federal elections.)

Instead, Obama's campaign has tendered the startling proposal that he arbitrarily be allotted half of the votes already cast in Michigan and Florida. Of course, a large number of these votes -- more than a quarter of a million in Florida alone -- were not cast for Obama. He simply proposes that the party add these votes to his total, as though they were rightfully his. Saying that votes already cast for other candidates should go to him is a bold power grab, worthy of the Chicago machine organizations that claimed the votes of the recently deceased, their names gleaned from the voting rolls. By any definition of democracy, those votes do not belong to Obama; nor do they belong to Hillary Clinton, nor to Howard Dean. They belong to the voters. Obama can no more lay claim to them legitimately than his supporters can declare he has won the nomination before the remaining primaries take place.


Now consider the delegate count and its connection to the popular vote. In Nevada, Clinton also won a popular majority, despite pressure from union officials on the rank and file attending the caucuses to vote for Obama. Yet Obama claims, on the primary electoral map posted on his official Web site, that he actually won Nevada -- presumably because rules that gave greater weight to rural than urban votes mean he won a marginal edge in the Byzantine allotment of the state's delegates. Why, in deference to the clear-cut Nevada popular majority, doesn't Obama cede the majority of the state's delegates to Clinton? Because, according to the rules, he's entitled to those delegates. But why are the rules suddenly sacrosanct and the popular vote irrelevant? Might it be because the rules, and not the popular vote, now benefit Obama? And what about Texas, another state where Clinton won the popular vote but has not been awarded the majority of pledged delegates? Once again, for Obama, the rules are suddenly all-important -- because the rules, and not the popular majority, now favor him.

Obama's totals thus far have come in great part from state caucuses nearly as much as from actual primaries. (Eleven out of the 30 states and other entities he has won held caucuses, not primaries. Washington held both, as did Texas, where Obama won the caucuses and lost the popular vote.) Of the two systems, caucuses are by far the less democratic -- which may be why there will be exactly zero caucuses in this fall's general election. By excluding voters who cannot attend during the limited times available, the caucuses skew participation toward affluent activists and students, and against working people, mothers and caregivers, and the military. Clinton's victories, by contrast, have come overwhelmingly in states with primaries, not caucuses. Obama is certainly entitled to the delegates he won in the caucuses. But he can hardly, on that account, claim that he is clearly the popular favorite.

In 2004, Democrats lost most of the states where Obama's delegates come from now. The Democrats are likely to lose most of those states again in 2008, no matter how much his supporters speak of winning crossover votes. (Idaho and Wyoming, for example, where Obama won caucuses, are not going to vote for either Clinton or Obama come fall.) Of the remaining states that Obama has won, only one is a large state with a considerable number of electoral votes -- his home state of Illinois. Clinton has won the popular vote in all of the other large states -- and has done so in primaries, not caucus decisions. The arithmetic here is simple: Because of the flawed system, the delegates from the states that Obama has won, many of which vote strongly Republican, represent far fewer Democratic voters than those from the states Clinton won.

Finally, there is the disquieting question of acknowledging what kind of democracy will determine who wins the presidency in 2008. Strong arguments could be made that, in a thoroughgoing democracy, voters choose presidents with a direct, plebiscitary system. The candidate who commands a majority (or, perhaps, a plurality) of the popular vote nationally wins the election. But, interesting as they might be as an academic exercise, such musings are irrelevant to the politics of 2008. We have a winner-take-all system, but it operates on a state-by-state basis (except in Maine and Nebraska, where it's winner-take-all by congressional district). Like it or not, we will choose the president under the indirect and fractured democracy of the Electoral College.

Obama has tried to reinforce his democratic bona fides by asserting his superior electability, and by claiming that Clinton's supporters are more likely to back him in November than vice versa. The polls, however, show otherwise. And even more important, the polling data on the electoral vote totals show an outcome very different from the one suggested by Obama. The latest state-by-state figures (as of late March) updated from SurveyUSA, indicate that if the election were held today, Clinton would defeat McCain in the Electoral College because of her lead in big, electoral-vote-rich states such as Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania -- and McCain would beat Obama.

In the final analysis, though, the fights inside the Democratic Party aren't really about either an ideal American democracy or the American democracy that actually exists. According to the Obama campaign, democracy is defined as whatever helps Barack Obama win the Democratic nomination. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a candidate arguing this way. But everybody should see it for what it is -- not something new or transformative, but one of the oldest ploys in the playbook of American politics.

< Funny Quotes | Way to go, Cenk >
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"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 04/08/2008 05:30:40 PM EST


Very good, should have a disclaimer: the people behind Clinton are the "Left" wing of the party. You should at least give Kos and Huff their due.

by LORD FOUL on 04/08/2008 05:38:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I got it from Andrew Sullivan's blog. I would have given proper credit if this were a blog post but its just a comment on an otherwise thoughtful (if misquided) blog of yours. Besides, I'm not taking credit for anything and who gives a shit anyway, I'm sure you don't.

Whatever you think about either candidate, and I'm currently of a mind that my previous on-the-fence stance (Hillary v. McCain) was silly, Barack is playing chess, and everyone else is playing checkers. So all this belly-aching about whats a better system belies the real issue here, which is that Obama looked at the playing field, sized up the competition, and exploited weaknesses in the system to get elected. Hillary, who had what everyone thought were insurmountable advantages, did not do the same thing. That is why the title of your blog is incorrect.

And by the way, a technically insurmountable lead is not, by definition, "narrow". Let's hope for a clear winner in the days to come so we can focus on McCain. I'm fully behind whoever wins the primary.

"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 04/08/2008 06:33:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I wouldn't source anything from Mr. Sullivan or any other Log Cabin Republican.

I am not bellyaching, Obama has done a good job at taking advantage of the system and liberals in particular

Our "system" has provided us with just 1 winner since 1980. That winner is despised by the Pubs exactly because he could still get things done (even with a Pub Congress) to the benefit the entire country. He is hated even more by members of his own party (because he could compromise?)

The problem, as I have been saying, is the general election is a different game. If played by those rules he loses to Clinton. That is specifically what I am worried about. This country needs a Dem in the WH. Am I just expected to acquiest to the left wing horde and allow them to pick another loser? On what basis am I supposed to have "faith" in Obama in the general election?

by LORD FOUL on 04/08/2008 09:44:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Did so in a 3 way race and acted like a Republican...

I guess that says it all on the whole Democratic nominating process...

Nicely said, LORD FOUL...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/08/2008 10:21:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]

yeah, if we play by the general election rules maybe hillary would have won. But that's making some big assumptions. I'm trying to get you to see the possibility that Barack won because he played the game. There's no reason to think if the rules were otherwise that he wouldn't have come up with a different ingenious strategy and still have won anyway.

In the general election he'll campaign differently--still in all fifty states--but obviously the caucuses aren't a factor. But also name recognition won't be as much of a factor as it was when he was going up against The Most Popular President in Recent Memory and his wife.

Look, he's not my uncle, I can be convinced to vote for someone else. But so far he's made a convincing case for himself, as a strategest, a rhetoritician, and a leader. Hillary has proven to be conventional and thoroughly unimaginative in her campaign. I want to win this time. 

"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 04/09/2008 12:33:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
winner-take-all "democracy?"

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

by jarett on 04/08/2008 05:44:34 PM EST


jarett, i would argue that the Democrats have Created a lot of their own misery by not having a winner take all system...

The Electoral College is winner take all... if the popular vote is higher than your opponent, you take the state...

The Republicans have Winner Take all primaries - if they win, they win - none of this proportional shit that blurs the picture of who is really ahead -

Why do the Democrats do this? fairness? Equality? No, its bullshit compromise, and they are paying the price this round for it - this election should have been a cakewalk - We shouldnt even be having these discussions about a possible McCain Presidency!!!

I dont do math well, but I suppose Hillary would be winning in a winner take all race - Im not sayin nothing, Im just sayin...

thanks

:)

by bobo1 on 04/08/2008 05:50:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]

First I am shocked, shocked! that you don't do math well.

I have the EV vote twixt BO and HC at 196-176 Obama.

Of course we have to figure out what to do with FL and MI which are disputed.  Texas which I think should be Obamas since he "won" it under our idiotic rules but the Clinton folks will never agree to that. MO and NH were splits but I give NH to Clinton and MO to Obama (I think).

Now its 241-179 Obama.

If everything else plays out as expected we get an easy Obama win.

 

by ProfRich on 04/08/2008 06:06:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
working under the assumption that Obama will win TX, MO and FL? he wont, unless this big groundswell of support appears magically from the depths of the youth and uninformed voter bloc---

Thanks..

:)

by bobo1 on 04/08/2008 06:23:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm currently evious of the Dem primary. McCain got the party elite to endorse him in Florida...and then it was over form there on out. If these states weren't winner take-all, we could have had gorrilla campaigns going on, but instead everyone got out early.

by acroso on 04/08/2008 07:58:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama did win Texas (I am talking about the primary, of course).  They tied in delegates from MO but I thought Obama got more votes, I can't remember and Florida didn't count.

by ProfRich on 04/08/2008 11:13:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama lost the Texa primary but won the caucus from what I remember.

by acroso on 04/08/2008 11:28:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

98 delegates to 94.

The premise was if Dems did it like Repubs.  Caucuses count with the Repubs so therefore Obama won Texas since he won the combined primary/caucus result.

Look, the premise of this whole idea is stupid.  It was bobo's idea after all.  I am just saying his numberless math is either wrong (as usual) or arguable. 

by ProfRich on 04/09/2008 12:14:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]
My bad, I was referring to the future election in November...

thanks...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 12:03:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
He's so blinded by dislike of Obama (part rational, part incredibly irrational) that he's latched onto Hillary completely, (a certain amount of) facts and logic be damned at this point.

I know, I know, that may sound unfair, but there's at least *some* truth to it.  Besides, I've been looking forward to turning the tables on the contrarian types who always refer to "kool aid drinkers".

by ihavenobias on 04/08/2008 05:52:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]

To me the big Kool-Aid drinkers are the people who thought Hillary could win after Texas and Ohio.

That was just delusional. 

by ProfRich on 04/08/2008 11:05:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This would make a good suggestion for 2012, but we set up the rules for 2008 already so I guess we are stuck with them.  Only problem with this winner take all Primary is only the big states would make the decision.  You win states with large populations like California and Texas you have most of your delegates.  The DLC would completely ignore the small states because there is no reason to go there.  But it would be great for the establishment candidates with plenty of money.  That would be the DLC's Dream.

by jdenham on 04/08/2008 06:22:18 PM EST


Big States decide who becomes president... Thats not in dispute - more people = more power...

If the Electoral College wasnt in place, you might have an argument - but the big states always decide who wins and it has always been like that...

Thats what people get for living in small states - minimal representation...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/08/2008 09:41:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Large state voters have less power in the election per capita.  And large states are not that big a factor.  Just look at the last two elections.  The GOP has been winning by winning an assload of small states.

by ProfRich on 04/08/2008 11:10:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
have TX, CA and FL in my column than MS, RI and VT.

republicans have been wnning because Democrats keep running unelectable leftists instead of middle roaders...

thanks

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 12:06:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Want in one hand and shit in the other.  See which one fills up first.

The only time a candidate wins all three is when they win virtually every state.  What you are saying might be true if the big states voted one way and the small voted the other but that ain't the way it works.

04- Top EV states: CA-D, TX-R, NY-D, Fl-R, IL-D, PA-D

00- CA-D, NY-D, TX-R, FL-R, PA-D, IL-D

Argument just doesn't bear out in the real world. 

by ProfRich on 04/09/2008 12:22:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
but my second point is still standing tall - democrats need to put up electable candidates so they'll stop getting beaten by less qualified people (Reagan, the Bushes, Nixon, etc...)

We shall see...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 12:54:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The DLC cant win because they spend all their time staking out the middle.  Their plan has been to only go where they know they think they can win.  They listen to the Republicans tell them how to win, you think Mark Penn is a Democrat, he is a Republican at least in philosphy if not in fact.   The Democrats need to go left and state their case.  Voters might like health care, schools, jobs, stable economy, and end to the war.  The Republicans have no platform, just some catch phrases.

by jdenham on 04/09/2008 10:32:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The only Democratic President we've had since 1980 was a DLC guy....

The reason Democrats keep losing is because they keep nominating LIBERALS who do not connect with the general Electorate...

Let us review the nominees since 1980...

Carter -  Yeah he did a great job when he had the chance. I love gas lines and 28% inflation...

Mondale -  My god, sticks in mud are more entertaining to talk to than old Wally was...

Dukakis -  Hide the rubbing alcohol, Kitty - what a fucking little New Englander pricky lib... Loved that tank pic... Wore his ACLU badge with Pride....

Clinton - Oh yeah, he won because he ran as a republican and then governed left... Hey - it worked...This was a man one could have a beer with, go womanizing with and enjoy their time together - I admire BVill Clinton for his Political suaveness - he was slick...

Gore - ManBearPig himself - if Chicken Little ever was put into human form, he would be it... And he's sooo boring almost to the point of being non-human... The reason he lost is because he didnt follow Clintons lead and make himself appear to be more conservative... The whole Tree Hugger label doesnt help him either 

Kerry - Northeastern Liberal Giggolo (sp) who marries into money and thinks hes important. Loved those windsailing pics... The whole America is evil speeches after Vietnam didnt help either...

Obama - Where should I begin? Reverened Wright? Chicago Democrat? Rezko? Liberal Record? Inexperience? The Race Card? Oh the possibilities...

The point here is that all of these men except for Bill Clinton ran as LIBERALS and lost because being LIBERAL AND PROUD is still considered a bad thing in this country. Changing the moniker to "Progressive" doesn't hide the fact that you guys are the same old Liberals with the same old liberal ideas that do not win Presidential Elections...

I am not saying that the liberal ideas are bad... many of them would help our coutry tremendously - but you have to put up people who represent the whole of America, and Democrats still think they can win the Presidency on ideas alone - they cant, as the last 30 years have proven again and again...

Thats why Democrats dont win the Presidency... And until they realize this, they will continue to lose to more unqualified people in this process - and thats a damn shame...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 11:30:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]

These are weak, Bobo.  Ask anyone.  Mondale wasn't fun to talk to?  Excuse me while I weep.  You have been victimized by a sinister democratic campaign of systematic boredom.

And you drag the same lame-ass argument out for Gore, too!  Sur-to-the-prise. 

by OneHitKill on 04/09/2008 11:54:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Stop being such a Liberal for one minute and think about it - Are most Americans like you?

Do they believe the same things you do?

Would they pick Walter Mondale to represent them in anything? Dukakis? Al Gore?

Come on, you know what Im saying...

We really are on the same side here - I do not want to see more Republican rule in this country - it is terrible - but we have to learn how to play the game in order to win - If we do not win, we cannot invoke change...

Thats what Im saying...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 12:08:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]

"Would they pick Walter Mondale to represent them in anything? Dukakis? Al Gore?"

And yet when there is a candidate that clearly resonates with people you bitch endlessly in long monotonous diatribes about how "he's inexperienced" and "he's not qualified".  Make up your mind.  You are long-winded and boring.  You write reams of crap and I still can't figure out what the hell it is you want, or what your point is supposed to be, or even if there is a point.

Let me summarize your rants in a couple of sentences as far as I can figure it out:

I don't like Obama, he can't win!  I don't like Hillary much either!  Why can't the Democrats put up who I think they should put up?  Wanh! Oh fucking Waaannnh!

BOBO crying
 

 

by bfaul on 04/09/2008 01:44:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"And yet when there is a candidate that clearly resonates with people..."

bfaul, Obama resonates with Liberal people - the rest of us are still not overly impressed...


It has been my experence that if a Liberal is truly impressed with someone (ie Gore, Obama) then that usually spells doom for their chances in a general election.


You guys assume everyone loves Obama - hate to tell you, but they really dont. Its only those I call the ObamaBots that have their orgasms daily upon the sound of his voice... The rest of us are wondering what the hell is so impressive... really...

Thanks for the cut picture though...

:)

by bobo1 on 04/09/2008 01:58:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

faul, Obama resonates with Liberal people - the rest of us are still not overly impressed...

Again, you are drawing imaginary lines around imaginary demographics.  How can you presume to know what "liberals" think?  And how can you presume to know what "the rest" think?  KenTX might be annoying but at least he sometimes has numbers to back up his tirades. 

by OneHitKill on 04/09/2008 08:33:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But you left out Humphrey, McGovern, LBJ. Let's take it back a half a century. 

You guys offer up some of the worst candidates. And it's not just the candidate, it's the message: "America is ready for a European style government!" That's a difficult sell in a conservative country.

Bobo is right about Bill Clinton. He lied (as he is want to do) and ran as a centrist Republican. It worked, twice.

But take heart liberals. If the economy is bad in November, I guarantee you that Barack Obama will win.

On the other hand, if the economy is good, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell. 

by KenTX on 04/09/2008 08:56:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Bobo is right about Bill Clinton. He lied (as he is want to do) and ran as a centrist Republican. It worked, twice.

Isn't it the other way round?  That Clinton ran as a democratic but acted more like a republican in office?  That makes a lot more sense, considering some of his actions as president.

by OneHitKill on 04/10/2008 12:45:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]

 Here is the election of 2004 in "big states" terms: 

Top 6- D-128, R-61     ;  (there is a tie for 5th)

Top 11- D-157 R-111   &nbs p; (there is tie for 10th)

All 21 with 10+EV- D-213 R-167

All 24 w/9+- D-213 R-194

All 26 w/8+ D-213 R-210 

28 w/7+ - D-227 R-224

Now if by "big" you meant 6+ EV you would be right for 2004 (D:227-R:242)

The numbers for this theory are slightly worse for 2000. 

I know I belabored this but I just want to put it out of its misery for the rest of the election season. 

by ProfRich on 04/09/2008 01:00:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]
<h3>Why Hillary Clinton should be winning but isnt...two words Mark Penn </h3>

by MRFred on 04/08/2008 09:04:37 PM EST


It's a very logical and extensive argument you have made, but at the end of the day it's human beings that are voting and they have a tendency to stubbornly defy the math.  Has it occurred to you that people simply respond to what Obama says because they hear a sincerity that they may find lacking in Hillary?  I keep seeing people talking about Obama koolaid, but I don't see it that way at all.  He just phrases things in a way I find precise and honest.  It may be just calculated political words to you but to me it shows clear thinking that hits all the right points.  I hear Hillary and McCain and I hear politics, politics, politics. 

It just so happened that Bill Clinton made a campaign stop in my city on his first presidential run.  I went to see him on a whim and I was damned impressed, not because he had an abundance of "experience" or was "ready to go on day one" or any bullshit like that.  He spoke eloquently clearly, passionately, and I walked away liking the man.  I also voted for him.

That's what wins, not all that other horseshit.

by bfaul on 04/08/2008 09:33:34 PM EST


"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 04/09/2008 12:42:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
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