Way to go, Cenk

Email Print posted by richardshort2001 04/08/2008 10:58:42 PM EST

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You had to go and keep comparing this campaign to the WWF, didn't you.

Congratulations, now on Raw, Vince McMahon is going to dress up two goofs and have a Clinton v. Obama match.

I hope you are proud of yourself.

< Why Hillary Clinton should be winning | Is it McCaining With You? >
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Way to go, Cenk | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 hidden)
Look! Up in the sky! (none / 0)

SuperCenk!

100% Right - 0% Wrong!

Even when you don't WANT him to be!

by MedfordTim on 04/09/2008 10:37:49 AM EST

I have to admit (none / 0)
that's pretty funny.

by ihavenobias on 04/09/2008 12:04:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Chillin at the IHOP of solitude. (none / 0)
Who's his Lex Luthor I wonder?

by Spencer on 04/09/2008 07:43:50 PM EST

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Neil Cavuto of Fox News? (none / 0)
Glenn Beck would be one of his bumbling henchmen (Cavuto's I mean).

by ihavenobias on 04/09/2008 08:24:33 PM EST

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LOL (none / 0)
I forgot about Cenk's hate for Cavuto.  Now I'm envisioning Neil with a bald head catching a critical beatdown from life, liberty, and the Turkish way).
But if not Cavuto, there's always Heather Mills.

by Spencer on 04/09/2008 09:02:24 PM EST

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Obviously the stump isn't just a stump (none / 0)
The wood covers a kryptonite rod and or a gun of some sort.

by ihavenobias on 04/09/2008 09:57:39 PM EST

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I would be all over this thread (none / 0)
If it was marvel

by ProfRich on 04/09/2008 11:59:43 PM EST

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Yeah (none / 0)
DC is a red headed step child compared to Marvel, although some contrarians/old timers like DC. ;)

by ihavenobias on 04/10/2008 12:33:05 AM EST

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Contrarians/old timers like DC? (none / 0)

Like me.  A ripe old 23.  But I'll spare you the ultimate geek discussion of how DC actually came first (Superman in Action Comics in 1938, and the first Marvel imprint in 1939.  Pardon me while I go put some fresh tape on my glasses).

I don't know what superhero from Marvel Cenk could be.  Oh wait, yes I do: 

Cenk SMASH! 

by Spencer on 04/10/2008 12:56:18 AM EST

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Spencer, you proved my point (none / 0)
I KNOW DC "came first".  That's why it's old an inferior vs Marvel (new and improved).

;)

by ihavenobias on 04/10/2008 10:18:47 AM EST

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Get over the hate! (none / 0)

I was reading Marvel BEFORE Spider-man or Fantastic Four were created. "Timely" comics, created in 1939, became "Atlas" comics in 1950, morphing into "Marvel" officially in 1961 with Amazing Adventures #3.

I have always been a bit biased towards Marvel, but I don't understand this "one or the other" crap. Marvel SUCKED when Jim Shooter was in charge.

Keep up the division and you'll NEVER get that three-way with Kitty Pride and Koriand'r!

I really don't appreciate what Marvel has done with this "Ultimates" line.

by MedfordTim on 04/10/2008 06:34:33 PM EST

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I like Ultimate Marvel (none / 0)
but other than that you're right on.  There's more than enough room for both on my table.  I even fit some Image/Darkhorse/other into my busy schedule.

by Spencer on 04/10/2008 07:09:50 PM EST

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Buy my old comics (none / 0)
they're all like 92-25, collecting dust (in cases though). Early image stuff (Spawn, Savage Dragon, etc), lots of Marvel (X-Men, X-Force and more), etc.

by ihavenobias on 04/10/2008 08:04:03 PM EST

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No thanks (none / 0)
I have enough of my old ones sitting around without adding yours to the mix.

by Spencer on 04/10/2008 08:16:46 PM EST

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You drive a hard bargain (none / 0)
but you'll crack sooner or later.

by ihavenobias on 04/10/2008 09:29:05 PM EST

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Quick Hitters (none / 0)

I love Marvel, if you like DC good for you!  Enjoy.  Marvel keeps me busy enough.

At times Marvel has been weak.  I think the Shooter years were a mixed bag.  The 90s are pretty much unreadable.

IMO, the 2000s have been the greatest decade in Marvel (and comic) history what with Civil War, Secret Invasion, Daredevil V3 and, sorry Tim, Ultimate Marvel which I love.

I tend to follow writers more than anything else.  Love Bendis, Millar and Vaughn. Brubaker, Busiek, Waid and Ellis are right behind them.

I wouldn't be silly enough to have a crush on a comic character but if I did Kitty would be in the top three with Wasp and Emma Frost (who shouldn't even count since she is really just a walking fetish).

Ihavenobias, I am sorry you are stuck with a bunch of 90s comics.  There are about a million of each copy out there and they are almost uniformly terrible.  Tough break.  I was lucky enough to fall in love with the X-Men from about 75-90. 

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 12:20:56 AM EST

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LOL at next to last paragraph (none / 0)
I liked the Infinity stuff, but yeah there was a lot of BAAAAAD stuff in the 90's.  I haven't been keeping up for a few years now.  I heard the few things that made the news. (who would have thought comic plots would be in mainstream news, I guess Brittany wore underwear those days.)

Palin in 2012? Bitch, please! No, really, please run in 2012, bitch. ;)

by richardshort2001 on 04/11/2008 12:34:05 AM EST

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Serendipity (none / 0)

Like I said I have a lot of Marvel in the 75-90 range. 

My former neighbor teacher is younger and starting collecting in 90.  He has an enormous Marvel collection covering 90-98.  We switch comics and read each others stuff.  He is very bitter.

If you are looking to read goo stuff and have been out of the scene here are my thoughts:

Self-contained stuff-

Astro City by Kurt Busiek

Y: The Last Man by Brian K. Vaughn

Earth X/Universe X/Paradise X by Jim Krueger 

Semi-self contained-

The Ultimates Vol 1 and 2 (maybe best series ever)- Mark Millar (gorgeous art by Brian Hitch

Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Fantastic Four and various Ultiamte Mini-series

Daredevil vol 2, 16-106 by Brian Bendis and Ed Brubaker

Big sprawling stuff-

Marvel Civil War

Planet Hulk/World War Hulk

Secret Invasion 

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 12:59:08 AM EST

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Who knew there were so many geeks here? (none / 0)

Don't get me wrong, I've been loving the stories, but that whole GIANT CROSSOVER thing they've been doing recently is about this close to wearing thin with me.  Both DC and Marvel are going a little overboard with that.

At the risk of keeping this conversation going on into eternity, what did you think of the Spider-Man "Brand New Day" arc (if you've read it)?  Personally, I loved it, though everyone I know seems to disagree.  Then again, I'm totally schmoopie, so I ate up all that "love endures" stuff.  But I'd be interested to see what people who have been reading the books for a lot longer than me think.

Why does this discussion feels extra nerdy on a political chat? 

by Spencer on 04/11/2008 01:29:59 AM EST

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Whoops (none / 0)
I meant One More Day.

by Spencer on 04/11/2008 02:31:08 AM EST

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One More Post (none / 0)

One More Day was pretty good.  I am not as crazy about Brand New Day.  Seems like nothing more than resetting years of continuity (pretty good continuity too!).  I was never a Spider-Man guy but have spent the last few years trying to read all of Marvel post Onslaught (1997).

Turns out I like Spidey.  I think he is about the only major super-hero I would like to be friends with.  As in hang out and play XBox or watch a game with. 

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 10:12:34 AM EST

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I was into comics (none / 0)
from like 6th grade-freshman year of high school. I admit my taste may not have been the best at that age, but I loved X-Men, X-Force, etc.

I stand by my early 90's-ish choices and would ask you to build a time machine to tell the old Tom what he should've been reading instead at the time.

;)

by ihavenobias on 04/11/2008 12:49:29 PM EST

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Its not your fault! (none / 0)

The 90s were terrible everyhwere as far as I can tell.  You did the best you could, there was no right answer.  Kind of like a Republican primary.

Comic companies decided art was the only thing that mattered and that incredibly big guns and even bigger breasts (on male and female characters) were the only way to sell books.

Artists actually drew comics then sent them to writers and said write a story around these pictures.  It was a wasteland.

I am trying to insert an image but I don't know how. 

Its here if someone knows how to do it.

 

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 01:22:27 PM EST

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More history (none / 0)
"Artists actually drew comics then sent them to writers and said write a story around these pictures."

That's actually the way comics started and what made Marvel such a sensation in the 60s. Stan would throw out a plot line or the artist would come up with one and the artist would draw the whole story out and then Stan would come in and fill in the words. Very typical. Very few writers have been able to hold their own in telling the story - Chris Claremont (what an ass), Alan Moore, Marv Wolfman are (or were) in that class of writer.

Prof, you hit upon one of my pet theories about how some things work in the world. In this case, comic book artists in a VERY general sense. In the "olden" days, artist attended real honest to goodness art schools and learned the fundamentals. I find that too many of the modern corps of artists learned on their own by mimicing what they saw the comics.

The same is true with Rock'n'Roll. The originaters had roots in Rhythym & Blues, Blues, Jazz, and Country, so when Led Zepplin created something it was from those influences. Modern musicians are learning their chops from Led without understanding what their roots are.

I call it the Xerox effect - when you make a copy of a copy, each succeeding generation is a little fuzzier around the edges.

by MedfordTim on 04/12/2008 02:47:52 AM EST

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On the DVD for the Crow (none / 0)

there's a documentary about James O'Barr (the creator), and he says pretty much exactly what you just said.  You're right on.  Artists need to study the human form rather than Jim Lee.  Right now we have exaggerations on top of exaggerations with shitty computer coloring.

But at the same time, art is supposed to be the synthesis of all art that came before it, so...  Who knows?  Maybe it's not better or worse, and it's just different.

by Spencer on 04/12/2008 03:05:13 AM EST

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I'll sign on to the Xerox theory (none / 0)

On the caveat that we acknowledge that there are still some artists, writers, musicians, etc. who are doing it the right way.  Who do understand where it all came from.  But there certainly is a lot of crap.

Oh and the two differences between the 60s Marvel Method and the 90s is in the 60s Stan got to throw the basic plot to Kirby (et.al.) and they ran wild.  In the 90s the art was the first the writer knew of the story.  And in the 60s Stan held the hammer at the end of the day.  The 90s writer was a knotch or two below the coffee girl.

And, here comes the big sacrilege, a lot, and I mean a lot, of 60s marvel is really, really, really stupid.  Wonderful character, awesome pop art, terrible plots.  In fact its not really until the whole Inhumans/Galactus/Black Panther run in the FF that Marvel begins to churn out really great stories.  I say this having, in the last two years, read about 60% of Marvel's pre-Kirby leaving catalog.

This may provoke a lot of hate mail but Stan was a wonderful creator but not a very good writer. 

by ProfRich on 04/12/2008 09:45:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
No hate (none / 0)

You have to add another couple of caveats in there. Stan was pretty much the ONLY writer until Roy Thomas came along, so incredibly proficient has to be added to his talents.

As far as how "good"? You have to remember that until the mid-seventies, adult readers were negligible. Virtually everything was geared to the 8 to 12 year old.

Melodramatic? Absolutely - that's why Marvel SOLD. Cliche? Well, yes, but remember in reading the old stuff that they created the cliches. Sure, readers of today had seen the same ol' same ol' a million times, but not so much in '63.

In between the drama and the cliches, I learned things. Shakespearean quotes, historical facts - hell, how many other people know that the name of the island that the Statue of Liberty sits on is Bedloe Island? Thank you, Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

So while I agree with you about the level of intellectuality in the stories, I can't disregard the innovations - continued stories, wordless covers, The Merry Marvel Marching Society, the No-Prize (yes, I got one back in '68), and above all - angst.

Most fun I've had in a thread in quite a while. Thanks, all!

by MedfordTim on 04/12/2008 07:04:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Here it is (none / 0)
CapBoobs

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 01:28:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
RIP Steve "Nice Rack" Rogers (none / 0)

Palin in 2012? Bitch, please! No, really, please run in 2012, bitch. ;)

by richardshort2001 on 04/11/2008 06:35:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You could set your cup o joe on those things (none / 0)

Palin in 2012? Bitch, please! No, really, please run in 2012, bitch. ;)

by richardshort2001 on 04/11/2008 06:36:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He He He (none / 0)
He He He.

by z1p101 on 04/11/2008 07:35:51 PM EST

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I agree THAT looks ridiculous (none / 0)
but the thing is, the early 90's rebirth of the X-Men looked nothing like that. I thought the drawing kicked ass.

I hate the super-sized drawing, always have.

by ihavenobias on 04/11/2008 10:37:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You are correct (none / 0)

Early 90s X-Men was ok.  Jim Lee was on the book.  But as the decade wore on, more and more muscles and silicone began to get packed on.  Lee would evolve into the creator of that movement.  The picture of Cap is Rob Liefeld who is the most over-the-top practitioner and also the guy who drew and wrote X-Force.  Cable (who he invented) is the prototype character of the period.

RichShort made me wonder how the hell the sniper bullet ever got to Cap's heart. 

by ProfRich on 04/11/2008 11:51:56 PM EST

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Funny (none / 0)

Because Jim Lee doesn't draw like that at all anymore.  His last run on Batman looked great to me, and not dated in the least.  Comics mainly existed to sell toys back then, so the art style reflects that.  But now that plastic is more expensive, that's pretty much over.  That's one good thing about insanely high oil prices.

And all those pouches and utility belts in the 90s...  How many things could superheroes have to keep in them?  That, and characters always having to have some sort of cybernetic body part.  The extreme art style of the 90s was parodied perfectly in Grant Morrison's last issue of Doom Patrol (the DC book that the X-Men were stolen from FYI ihavenobias).

by Spencer on 04/12/2008 02:42:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Huh? (none / 0)
...the DC book that the X-Men were stolen from...

I would argue with that one for a very long time. There is a stronger case for Doom to be a variation of the FF - look at the powers! And X-men debuted shortly after Doom, not enough time to throw a copycat in the lineup in those days. Stan Lee has admitted that his main purpose was to get a "group" book out to compete against the Legion of Super Heros.

Arnold Drake may have been convinced, I'm not so sure.

by MedfordTim on 04/12/2008 02:59:44 AM EST

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I don't know about the timing (none / 0)

or how long it took to get a book together back then, but the premise is just so similar.  A group of heroes hated by society all lead by a guy in a wheelchair?  The general ideas are very close.  And Stan Lee says that they only did the Fantastic Four because of the success of JLA anyway.  Everybody rips off everybody, like Einstein said "The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." which kind of goes back to your Xerox theory.

But I mostly said it to poke at ihavenobias' whole "DC is the red headed step child of Marvel" thing.  I don't really believe it, or care to be honest.

by Spencer on 04/12/2008 03:20:27 AM EST

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DC is for old timers (none / 0)
It's the CBS network of comic book corporations.

;)

by ihavenobias on 04/12/2008 01:40:14 PM EST

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Now and then (none / 0)
Lee has recovered and Marvel has rebooted all of that garbage with Onslaught anyway but man it got bad for a while there.  I didn't read at the time but looking back now it also all feels so homoerotic.

by ProfRich on 04/12/2008 09:39:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Way to go, Cenk | 38 comments (38 topical, 0 hidden)
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