Is there a hole in the FISA bill?

Email Print posted by desertpear 06/27/2008 02:23:38 AM EST

Google Technorati del.icio.us digg reddit
If you like this story, digg it!

John Dean seems to think so, and seems to be offering this as an explanation for Obama's vote on FISA.

As blogged out by Keith Olbermann on Daily Kos today.

Link to KO's blog posting

"I think it was last Thursday or Friday - dates and quotes aren't going to be exact here and you can forgive that or not - that we had John Dean on, to try to explain Senator Obama's rationalization of voting for the telecom civil immunity in the FISA bill.

Simply put, what John said quelled any anger simmering beneath my surface. Because John Dean is the smartest person I've ever met...

John said his reading of the revised FISA statute suggested it was so poorly constructed (or maybe so sublimely constructed) that it clearly did not preclude future criminal prosecution of the telecoms - it only stopped civil suits..."

Could this be why so many democrats (including Obama) voted for FISA?  I can't shake the thought that there might be a reason so many dems caved beyond the "craven" argument."  Here are Dean and Olbermann:

Link to Dean and Olbermann video

[Editor's note] P.S.  Many people like to comment based on reading the post.  In this case, like many others, you would have to be bothered to actually read the material in the link and watch the video to understand the argument being made.  It is not my argument.  I just thought it was interesting.

< Now Ice T takes on Joan Rivers! | Potential Veeps. >
 Display:
Is there a hole in the FISA bill? | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 hidden)
FISA (none / 0)
You're grasping at straws.
Obama caved.
He promised to oppose immunity.
His word is worthless.
He doesn't have to compete with hillary for
the base any more so he showed his true self.
He just told the base to flick itself.

I've seen this show before. His surrogates
will try and make you think he has a larger purpose.
But it's just a game to calm you down long enough
to win the election.

"Believe half of what you see, none of what you hear."
I just saw a politician(liar) in action.

by beelzibub on 06/27/2008 09:34:46 AM EST

politicians (none / 0)

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.  I've been around long enough to know what politicians do.  Often times it actually doesn't even disappoint me that much, because I have no expectations of perfection and I understand the game.  I am not "grasping at straws"--this is your projection of my intent in writing this post (totally understandable).  I just thought I would toss this out there as another part of the story.  Whether or not it is true will remain to be seen.  So much seems to come to the light after the fact these days. 

In fact, I am actually not even that upset about the FISA bill.  The reason I posted this is because so many people seem ready to throw in the towel before the dems even elect a president, and because I was surprised so many otherwise progressive dems voted for it.  I hate the loss of privacy that we have suffered under Bush, but I am withholding judgment on this subject until a year or two has gone by with a dem majority (yes, I know we have that now, but we still have Bush).

Obama's vote on this doesn't make me think less of him actually.  I've been following Obama's career for at least five years now and have never had any illusions about him being a lefty.  I've known about his ethanol connections for years--they were reported years ago when ethanol was still considered a potential solution to our energy problem.  I supported Edwards because he more closely matched my views, but I still like Obama's character.  

I could change my mind, but I would still vote for him in the election.  I've voted for a lot worse in my 47 years!!

by desertpear on 06/27/2008 01:21:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're grasping at turnips, (none / 0)
and you just fell off the straw truck.

What will George Bush do five minutes after he signs the Democrat Capitulation Act of 2008, giving telecom companies immunity from civil lawsuits?

Think about it.

If you come up with the answer, it makes you much smarter than John Dean, Keith Olbermann, and Markos Moussalini.

The answer is that Bush will immediately give pardons to the telecoms so they can't face criminal prosecution. Then they will be totally immunized, both civilly and criminally.

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 02:46:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yeaaa (none / 0)

More big government protecting those who steal our liberties.

And this retard can't figure out why Dems are winning in old Republican strongholds.

The Republican party is the big brother party and that is why people are running away from them. 

Not every one is willing to toss the salad of any neo con who promises them a tax break. 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 02:58:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama caves on telecom immunity! (none / 0)
Hey Zippy,

Here's what you said regarding telecom immunity.
"More big government protecting those who steal our liberties."

Here's what Barack Obama said regarding telecom immunity.

Would you like to explain why Barack Obama is protecting those who steal our liberties?

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 03:24:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Hey Zippy! (none / 0)
Barack Obama said that national security is more important than "watching the watchers". And yet, you have nothing to say on the subject.

You always go mute whenever it's time to discuss important issues.

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 03:52:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
OK (none / 0)

since you are a a Goldwater Republican, you tell me what is important here.

Watch Ken shut up. 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 04:38:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
what is important (none / 0)
Is that Barak Obama is advocating immunity for telecoms, and zippy is not saying a word about it. That smacks of hypocrisy.

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 06:50:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yep (none / 0)

Politicians playing politics in an election year.

Ohh, so surprising.

Whatever, Obama is still our only hope to end Republican big brother style tyranny. If this one needs to be swept under the rug then so be it.

You need to pick your battles and Republicans are still taking the fall for all this crap in American's eyes.

Since you want me to comment about it I will. Am I happy about it? No. Do I understand the move politically? Yes. 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 01:18:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Like I said in this post (none / 0)

I don't really care that much. But thanks for getting all exercised over it!

Besides, I saw Keith's fantasy pretty much debunked since I posted this.   He is now ranting about the "John Kerry with a tan" comment. 

by desertpear on 06/28/2008 04:13:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]
John Kerry's fake tan (none / 0)
Remember when he was painting his face with that orange stuff, after injecting with botox, and thinking nobody would notice?
orangeman

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 04:26:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Do (none / 0)

you find that look attractive?

Don't worry Ken, I won't tell your dad. 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 04:32:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That fake tan was pretty bad (none / 0)

Made me wince every time.

Although not as much as I winced every time Bush opened his mouth or pretended to be a cowboy.

But, you are right, it was an awful fake tan. 

by ProfRich on 06/29/2008 12:32:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You may be a super studly, daddy worhsipping (none / 0)

engineer, but you are no legal scholar.

In order to be granted pardon, you have to be convicted of a crime first.  The telecoms haven't even been charged.

And if the telecomms were even put on trial the whole Pandora's box of evidence would out the Bush administrations criminal activity and the ensuing pardon would be moot since the investigation and evidence would already be part of the public record.

You really have no idea how pardons work or what this whole telecom immunity issue is all about, do you? 

by ProfRich on 06/29/2008 12:28:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
four words (none / 0)
Gerry Ford, Richard Nixon. Let me know if you require more words.

by KenTX on 06/29/2008 02:01:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
no response yet Rich? (none / 0)
You really have no idea how pardons work, do you? Why don't you ask Marc Rich and Hugh Rodham? They know.

by KenTX on 06/29/2008 05:59:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If Obama's vote is justifiable (none / 0)
He has some 'splainin to do. I was profoundly dissappointed with his speech on the subject last week. His words were bizarrely laudatory toward the bill he's supporting. To put it delicately I wasn't sure he was talking about the same piece of legislation I had in mind. I expected to be dissappointed on some things but this issue is different. When promoting Obama to friends and Hillary supporters during the primary I would bring up Obama's Constitutional Scholarship as a major plus (wouldn't it be nice to have someone in the WH that understands the constitution?). I'm with Cenk on this one, though--this vote suggests he might not give a damn about the constitution or anything else but his political ambition. If he won't stand tall to protect the bill of rights, what else does an independant have to justify voting for him?

by hazmat on 06/27/2008 10:55:58 AM EST

well (none / 0)

John Dean's point was that dems were voting for the bill, knowing it had this weakness, but not wanting to draw attention to it.  So Obama's speech, in Dean's interpretation, would necessarily not discuss the fact that he knew it had this flaw.

That is the point I am trying to make in the post.  It isn't my point, and I am not trying to make excuses for the dems.  I'm just curious whether the simple answer might be missing something.  None of us here has read the bill, right?

by desertpear on 06/27/2008 01:11:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Russ Feingold nailed it (none / 0)
The bill was terrible, and its flaws don't begin and end with immunity. So, patriotic American lawmakers, regardless of party affiliation, should oppose it without reservation. This whole affair reaks of CYA, and your explanation--although I sympathize with the instinct to give Obama a pass in case he knows something we don't--isn't adequate. There's a time to play politics and there's a time to clarify the debate and create your own frame. We voted for Obama because he supposedly has the ability to do this. Well, this would be one of those times.

by hazmat on 06/27/2008 01:25:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
ok (none / 0)

I repeat that it isn't my explanation--it was put out there by John Dean and reported on by Keith Olbermann in Daily Kos last night.  I agree that it is a heinous bill, but it actually isn't my top priority in terms of politics.  I'm not giving Obama a "pass" so much as it just not really affecting my previous judgement of him--that he isn't a progressive lefty and never has been.  I wonder if too many people are projecting progressiveness on him and then being disappointed because they really don't know what he stands for. 

I appreciate your comments.  The vote was a surprise to me, not because of Obama's vote so much, but because of the overwhelming number of dems who voted for it.  I am leaning towards agreeing with those who say they voted to cover their asses, especially when I found some information on how much the telecoms donate to dems.  I mean, aren't these the same corporations that are profitting tremendously off the campaigns to the tune of unbelievable sums?

by desertpear on 06/27/2008 01:36:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
update (none / 0)

Glenn Greenwald responded to Olbermann's post.  Haven't read it all, but you can find it summarized and linked here if interested. 

Link to response to KO

 

by desertpear on 06/27/2008 01:41:50 PM EST

If this is true... (none / 0)

I might actually become an Obamabot!

I remain, however, highly skeptical. 

by ProfRich on 06/27/2008 01:55:11 PM EST

Me too Professor (none / 0)
I'm a huge skeptic and a huge cynic.  I'm also a scientist and just like to see all the data. ;)

by desertpear on 06/27/2008 01:58:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks for posting this (none / 0)
We've heard plenty of negative things regarding the Dems and Fisa (for good reason) so it's nice to have a possible alternative view.

I'm cynical, but I'm open to being surprised.

by ihavenobias on 06/27/2008 09:30:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Funny (none / 0)

I talked to a friend tonight who is also a big Keith Olbermann fan and she said exactly the same thing--that her understanding is that the FISA bill leaves the telecoms open to civil suits.

I'll have to be ashamed of so many democrats if they are wrong!!  I like Jim Webb, etc.  I have to admit though, that Russ Feingold is both strongly liberal and sexy.  We gotta put our support (money) behind people like that and that is the point really.  Even if this "hole" is true, it is cowardice not to openly stand up for what is right. 

by desertpear on 06/28/2008 01:24:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Rich ain't buyin' it! (none / 0)
"I remain, however, highly skeptical."

Good job! If you had fallen for this nonsense, I would have teased you in good humored fashion.

By contrast, if GayBoyNick had fallen for the ruse, I would have been unmerciful.

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 02:53:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You (none / 0)

are really obsessed with this gay thing. You feel the constant need to reinforce your masculinity here.

Living in denial maybe? 

 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 03:08:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Nick is gay. (none / 0)
He already told the forum that he's gay. Did you miss the post? I'll try to find it.

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 03:26:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
So what (none / 0)

if he is or if he is not or if Nick is really Nicole and she is or is not?

Doesn't explain your unhealthy obsession with the subject or your constant need to tell us about what a manly man you are.

I'm not your Dad, You don't need to validate you own inadequacies with me. 

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 03:35:02 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Here's what. (none / 0)
Since you live in upstate New York, and Nick lives in southern Ontario, maybe the two of you could get together and get busy. With both of you "occupied", then the atmosphere in the forum might improve.

I don't know if you've noticed, but our little buddy Tiny has seemingly departed. It's so sad, really.
romantic waterfalls for Nick and Zippy

by KenTX on 06/28/2008 03:46:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Boo Hoo (none / 0)

Ken. What? I'm calling you out as a closet fag because you have the constant need to tell us that you are not? You are the one who needs to tell every one here that you are a football hero and that you stood up to bullies that recognized your "problem". You are the one with the gun toting wife and the over bearing Dad.

Don't blame me for your own denials.

by z1p101 on 06/28/2008 04:01:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Is there a hole in the FISA bill? | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 hidden)
 Display: