Keep your trap shut and tell us what we want to know!

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America has many double standards. I want to talk about one which I don't understand. Maybe brighter minds can enlighten me.

What spurred me was the reaction to Scott McClellan's book. Not that there was anything unusual or unexpected, but it did provide a current framing for a possible discussion for how we as a society look upon people who "spill beans." They are called rats, squealers, narcs, betrayers, informants, snitches, and tattletales. Scorn is heaped upon them. They are shunned by all.

But aren't we Americans given horribly mixed messages throughout our lives? Don't we hold truth-telling in esteem? Does it come down to "minding your own business?"


Here's an early life example. (People with siblings will immediately relate, single children - try to keep up.) Little sibling runs to parent crying and accuses older sibling of hitting. Parent, tired of having heard it a million times before, berates the little one and says "Don't be a tattletale!" Repeatedly, we are admonished for telling on our siblings or friends. So we learn to not say anything, not see anything.

Same parent, hears crash in other room, rushes in to find prized trophy from Junior High football in pieces on the floor. "Okay," he says, "who did this?" The siblings, having been told repeatedly not to snitch, clam up. Parent increases volume and severity of threats in reprisal for withholding information, usually until one breaks down and tells on the other. Then, the squealer watches as the other gets punished and finds themselves being praised for telling the truth. What lesson does the little rat learn? Will 'trust' be an issue in the other sibling's later life?

So, should people be shunned for shedding the light on wrongdoing? Should we raise our kids to tell the truth or keep incriminating information to themselves? Is it fair to keep confusing generation after generation by making them try to follow BOTH directives? Don't be a snitch but tell me who did it. Huh?

Every law enforcement person from a beat cop to the FBI and CIA Directors will tell you that they would not be able to function worth a damn without informants. They work their asses off making deals with all sorts of unsavory characters, letting them get away with crimes if need be, all in the quest for information. If all of their adversaries kept quiet, that well would dry up. Would we be proud that all those people learned the lesson of "Don't squeal" growing up and were sticking to it? Is it a fair trade-off for high unsolved crime rates?

Good reporters have the same situation. There would be very little news if there were no leaks. In fact, if the lesson of "keep it to yourself" were ingrained deep enough, there would be no news industry whatsoever. Entertainment magazines and TV shows based on gossip would disappear.

How do we reconcile these two messages while retaining a shred of credibility? Can we? Is there a line where it is okay to cross from silent to snitch? Who decides? Only figures of authority? Is it kosher to threaten a multi-year sentence to get someone to go against their own moral code?

What would Jesus do?

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They lied to him and pissed on his head...he pissed back.

That's a story as old as time itself my friend. 

by MRFred on 06/04/2008 01:45:42 PM EST


The McClellan thing is kind of beyond the scope.  The right-wing are simply relying on Tim's well-defined aversion to "ratting" to their advantage, in an attempt to undermine the truth that McClellan is offering us.

This doesn't minimize the great point Tim makes.  We have an incredible paradox with lying/squealing.  

I see it as a bit of a tightrope.  You need to go forward in truth (which may entail "ratting") but you need to gear it towards "truth that matters" as opposed to "truth for personal gain" or "truth about an inconsequential matter that may harm the person you are unmasking".  It's tough and it comes down to individual integrity.

It's another day in paradise...

by happyhominid on 06/04/2008 02:35:56 PM EST


If it their guy getting called out its bad, if its your guy its good.

Look at the people who "ratted" out the Clintons in the 90s.  Did you ever hear the words loyalty, rat or turncoat come out of a Republican during that insane, budget breaking, federal agent occupying (who should have been investigating terrorism) fiasco?

Ignore it all.  "Loyalty" means you do what I want. "Honesty and Integrity" mean you fuck over the guys I want fucked. 

by ProfRich on 06/04/2008 02:45:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't know how it plays, but there is a difference between "ratting out" or whatever we are calling it during a matter vs after the matter is over.  So a certain percentage of people are trained to hate those who tell, as MedfordTim points out, and a certain percentage might look favorably. But if you wait until it's too late, the people who might look favorably becomes a smaller number.

David

by yturks on 06/04/2008 06:01:44 PM EST


I would say it's a matter of personal judgement.  It's one thing to withhold information like, "Johnny took three cookies instead of two!" and another to withhold information like "Johnny pissed in daddy's lemonade!"  In the first case I might say, "okay, mind your own cookies and don't worry about Johnny's" while in the second if I take a sip of that lemonade and nobody spoke up I'm going to kick two kid's asses instead of just one.

I don't care for your "big sibling hitting little sibling for the millionth time" example.  I would take that seriously and jump all over big sibling if he/she kept on hitting little sibbling.  I'm assuming you meant something unimportant, like little sibling ratting out big sibling for making faces behind my back, or some such silly thing.  Then yes, I would eventually tell little sibling to knock it off.

So I guess what I'm saying is that there reaches a point where you ought to speak up, especially where people get hurt or die if you don't, and if you don't you need to be prepared to be seen as an accomplice. 

McClellan's job was peculiar in that he was simply a mouthpiece.  He may be repeating what he thinks are lies, but until someone tells him otherwise how is he to be sure?  With someone like Bush in office the job requires someone who can rationalize away lies and deceipt.  I don't think that is a particularly rare thing among the neocon bunch.

by bfaul on 06/04/2008 06:19:48 PM EST


It may be too late to have the political impact you or I desire, but getting the story right is paramount in the end. Its never too late to set the record straight. Ulterior motives to sell books aside, I do think the man is sincere and risked a great deal personally to be as candid as he was. We should encourage all officials past and present to come clean as soon as they are comfortable doing so for the good of the american people. Leave the bedwetting to the conservatives.

by hazmat on 06/04/2008 11:18:08 PM EST


I have heard is that it is like coming out of a cult. While you are in the cult, you can't think for yourself, you do what your told and don't question it. Once you are outside of the control of the cult and can look back with objectivity, you wonder how you could have ever said or done those things. As for the good lie/bad lie thing, all we can do is try to be the best people we can be and try not to do to much harm in the process.

by juebawl on 06/05/2008 11:02:10 AM EST


Intention is meaningless.  I don't care if those are dollar signs or little scales of justice in McClellan's eyes.  This book was a chance to tip the balance of his life's deeds away from the bad trend he had established.  Accusing him of cashing in is just a convenient way for those whose interests he threatens to get a few cheap hits in.  I won't take back any of the nasty things I said about Scotty when he was Press Secretary, nor will I scrutinize his motivation for doing the right thing later on.

by OneHitKill on 06/05/2008 12:32:26 PM EST



Evidently, I didn't make myself very clear. Oh well...

Scotty wasn't the point, he was merely a referential starting point.

My aim was more toward how we decide when being a snitch becomes honorable or if it ever is.

bfaul, yes, the scenario could be anything repetitive and annoying. Hmmm....maybe I should do dome self ecamining to find out why THAT was the example which came to mind. Hmmmm...

Anyway, thanks again folks.

by MedfordTim on 06/05/2008 02:37:57 PM EST


The truths that we beieve are greatly dependent on one's point of view (Obi Won Kenobi).

Being a cop I get this all the time. We are blamed for high crime rates, but people witness crimes and refuse to speak to us. (for a variety of reasons)

Go to an area with a low crime rate and I will show you an area where the citizens will call the police for the most minor of offenses.

People in general are hypocrites, holding others to standards that they would never hold themselves.

It is even true of our candidates. We believe what we want to believe despite the factual evidence in front of us. We immediately recognize a lie from an enemy and make excuses for a friend.

by LORD FOUL on 06/05/2008 05:30:35 PM EST


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