Afghanistan is another sinkhole. Obama might be in BIG trouble

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This region bankrupted the Russians, and its about the worse situation any invader can find themselves in.

Obama seriously needs NATO to take the lead in Afghanistan to reduce the Taliban influence and find Osama. But the Left needs to be aware that his stance creates a whole new ball of chaos to deal with.

The Afghan Campaign against Terror will be extremely difficult unless Pakistan can do its part.

This will be a worldwide team effort to lean on Pakistan.

People need to pay attention to the big picture.

And You simply CANNOT fight two wars between a hostile nation--IRAN is crucial, they were originally our ally in the GWOT, and sworn enemies against Al Qaeda.

The second after the Bush administration makes deal with Iran and calms down Israel, we need bases in Iran to maintain a crucial fighting corridor in that region. 

The Shiites in Iran/Iraq need support to maintain strong armies and intel services region to stabilize it in the long run and put the Saudis and other Sunnis on notice to get their shit together and stop funding terror.

We need fast response units in the region to be able to respond to intel and threats in the region. Iran is in the PERFECT position to make that happen and they need the money.

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.c om/earl-ofari-hutchinson/bu shs-afghan-troop-plan-d_b_1 13761.html

<h2>Earl Ofari Hutchinson</h2>

President Bush's demand for more troops by 2009 in Afghanistan to win the war there predictably was scoffed at by the Joint Chiefs. They'll do the same with Obama's demand for more troops. In fact, any president or would be president who demands more troops will get the brush off. Yet Obama and almost certainly Republican rival John McCain will make that demand. The combat deaths of more U.S. troops in Afghanistan than in Iraq in May and June stirred panic and ignited a spurt of campaign jockeying and political oneupmanship between Obama and McCain on when and how to get more troops in the country.

But it's just talk. There are two reasons why. There aren't enough troops to effectively fight the Afghan war, much less two wars. Obama's plan to pull two brigades (about 7000 troops) out of Iraq and ship them off to Afghanistan is laughable. It won't come anywhere close to the number of troops needed to bring any semblance of military and political stability to the country, let alone win the war. That will take an estimated 400,000 troops. That nearly matches the number of troops in Vietnam at the peak of the U.S. war effort there. It took years to get to that level of troop deployment in Vietnam even with a compulsory draft. Moving that many troops to another war zone, assuming they were available, would be a nightmare of logistics, planning, supply, transport, funding, retraining, command changes and rotation.

But finding the troops and moving them from Iraq to Afghanistan is the smaller problem. The bigger problem is Obama's plan to escalate a war that's unwinnable; at least the way he wants to win it. That way is to toss more troops into a country that's stuck in a political and economic quagmire, where drug trading is endemic, the economy is crumbling, that has a long sievelike border with Pakistan where fresh Taliban recruits can move back and forth virtually unimpeded.

In recent months more Afghans say they distrust and dislike the U.S. and cheer the Taliban. In fact, dumping more American troops in the country would almost certainly increase that distrust, dislike and encourage greater military resistance.

An ABC News poll last December found that less than half of Afghans rated U.S. efforts in Afghanistan positively. This was a drastic plunge from the nearly 70 percent who two years before said they welcomed the U.S. presence in the country. A large number also said that the Taliban had grown in strength, and that they did not think the U.S. and NATO forces could do much about them. Since then the Taliban numbers have grown bigger, and even bolder in their armed attacks from suicide bombings, occupying towns, and controlling huge chunks of the country.

A massive troop build-up flies squarely in the face of the lesson of Vietnam. The lesson is that military might and firepower alone doesn't win wars in countries with fragile, shaky, and unpopular governments, an outgunned internal police and military force, against a resistance that controls a large part of the country and the loyalty of a big percent of the population.

Yet, on the eve of Obama's star driven campaign hyped jaunt to Afghanistan, McCain and Republicans and even a surprise Democrat Senator Joseph Biden whose name has been bandied about as a possible Obama running mate furiously wagged fingers at him on Afghanistan. The issue is what did he say and do about Afghanistan before his trip, before he became the presumed Democratic presidential nominee and before the spike up in troop deaths in the country.

The record doesn't look good. In February, he candidly admitted that he did not hold any hearings of his Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs on the problems and progress of the Afghan war. He chalked it up too a busy campaign schedule. This is a feeble explanation. The war even then seemed to be slipping badly out of U.S. control, and that was certainly a crucial time to deal with what went awry. The more credible reason is that Obama's subcommittee is supposed to deal with all U.S.-NATO related policies and issues. But that task is far too broad and ill-defined to make much of a policy impact. A full examination of such a weighty matter as Bush policy on the looming war crisis in Afghanistan is better handled by the full Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The committee subsequently held three hearings on Afghanistan. Obama attended only one of the hearings in March 2007.

Obama's Afghan appearance won't stop the criticism from foes that he doesn't know enough about fighting and winning a war, and that his credential as a tough guy on the war against terrorism is suspect. It certainly won't stop criticism that Bush's Afghan troop build up didn't work, and neither will Obama's. That's a criticism that shouldn't stop.

< Friday Wes Clark Senior Fan Club post | Maliki's "Endorsement" of Obama's Timeframe >
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Dude....

Ain't gonna happen. We have screwed Iran for going on 60 years now - why the HELL would they allow us to have bases there? You stand a better chance of getting a blow job from your ex's new boyfriend.

A question I rarely see raised is, "Why are we still fighting the Taleban?" Sure, Al Qaeda and the Taleban were linked when we invaded Afghanistan, but the Taleban should never have been a main focus of our battle there. 

Our fight is with Al Qaeda, no? They are not the Taleban. At this point, it is highly unlikely that any overlap of the two has any meaning whatsoever. The Taleban is fighting to regain their power in Afghanistan - none of our business!

If we concentrated on Al Qaeda, we wouldn't need all those extra people both sides are talking about. Really, how often do news reports out of Afghanistan say that clashes of force were between the Western forces and Al Qaeda? Check most and you will see they were conflicts with the Taleban members - who didn't attack us on 9/11, remember. Just as in Iraq, these are people who are trying to drive foreign invaders off their soil. And, just as Americans would do, they aren't going to stop trying to get rid of the invaders until they have won or are all dead.

Two different problems, two different solutions.

by MedfordTim on 07/19/2008 06:49:57 PM EST


The year is 1946, and our buddy Tim says: "The Nazis are fighting to regain their power in Germany. Its none of our business!"

by KenTX on 07/19/2008 07:02:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I know you're trying to confuse the youngsters here. Good luck with that. Especially with using an apples and watermelon comparison.

See, kids, KenTX is completely ignoring that the Nazis - Germany - were going about invading other European and African countries and stuff.

The Taleban may be an odd, strict, undesireable government in our eyes, but they were NOT invading anyone. Afghanistan was not invading anyone. Harboring Al Qaeda, absolutely. So, we defeated the Taleban and put in a puppet government which only has control of the capital city, mainly because the population doesn't trust or support the thieving bastards. War Lords and the Taleban run the rest of the country, and it doesn't matter how many of our troops we send over there, we will lose.

The Afghanis don't want us there, any more than they wanted the Soviets. How did that work out?

Leave Special Forces and enough troops to go after Bin Laden & Co. Get the rest out of harm's way. Or, are we prepared for a Hundred Year's War in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan?

 

by MedfordTim on 07/19/2008 07:52:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Korean, Vietnamese, and Confederate POWs. And thanks for giving permission to make war on bullies who invade peaceful neighbors such as Kuwait, Kurdistan, and Iran. Its a good thing we deposed Saddam, especilly after he was such a bad guy in the South Park movie.

by KenTX on 07/20/2008 12:44:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
OK, so you weren't responding to the POW post. Dude, I'm driving on I-10, reading my bb, ang posting with one thumb. Its hard work!

by KenTX on 07/20/2008 12:55:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]

 

Here I thought you were sayiing "Whoops!" to adding a non-existant country in your list or maybe acknowledging our own role in the Iraq-Iran insanity, but no.

 

Drive careful. Wait until you stop if you want to reply. Don't BB dangerous...

by MedfordTim on 07/20/2008 01:48:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Am I the only one who thinks McCain calling for a CZAR of AFGHANISTAN was not the best choice of words?

Think about everything you know about Afghanistan and think of the word origin of czar.  Kinda like calling for a crusade against the middle east, huh?

God, these guys are stupid.

by ProfRich on 07/20/2008 12:56:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
So we shouldn't have gone to war in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Kuwait? That's GREAT NEWS! Now we can bring everybody home. We don't even need a military.

by KenTX on 07/20/2008 01:03:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If we were wrong to go to war in Iraq, Afganistan, and Kuwait, then why in the world did we go to war in Kosovo? There was no oil and no terrorists in Kosovo?

by KenTX on 07/20/2008 03:54:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
when the adults were in charge. Thanks for bringing up kosovo.

"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 07/21/2008 01:46:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Soak it in this time, huh? After 4 years or so of repeating myself....;-)

 There is a difference between a U.N. action and a UNILATERAL action. 

Let's get that basic point first, shall we?

 

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 02:19:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Kuwait was UN sanctioned, and Afghanistan was NATO sanctioned. Wasn't Kosovo NATO sanctioned rather than UN sanctioned? (I'm driving again.) Don't you love all three wars equally as well?

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 03:39:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Tim, I distinctly remember begging you not to go after Saddam, but you said that since we were enforcing a UN resolution, we had no choice.

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 03:42:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]

False memory, that. I have gone so far as to say the world is better off without Saddam but never would I have said we were going after him because of the U.N. or that it was all right to do so. I have maintained this was a criminal invasion since around September of '02, when it was clear that Bush was determined to go in, no matter what. That hasn't changed. Bush is still a war criminal. I also rescinded the "better off" statement about the time troop casualties in Iraq reached the same number as those who died on 9/11 - not counting the Iraqi deaths....

There would be more question about invading Afghanistan and going after Bin Laden, as I did initially support that, I don't support what it turned into.

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 04:53:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The three countries of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Kuwait are three entirely different scenarios and justifications for war: apples, oranges, and cherries.

Afghanistan and Iraq were  wrongful illegal invasions and Kuwait was a legal military assistance.

1. The invasion of Afghanistan was a violation of international law and the USA's refusal to recognize the right of Afghanistan to hold extradition hearings before turning over someone to another country.  

2. The Iraq invasion was based entirely on a lie by George W. Bush and was illegal since Iraq was not a threat to the USA by any stretch of the imagination. Read "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder."

3. Kuwait was invaded by Iraq and since Kuwait asked for help the military assistance was a political decision that was legal.  There were many false stories about Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait used for propaganda, but even though lies were used to support the war in Kuwait and there were valid political reasons not to get the USA involved, the basic justification for USA involvement was present and legal.

 

 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 01:54:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That a Democrat-controlled Senate voted overwhelmingly (unanimously?) to invade Afghanistan. There were no "Bush lies" involved in this vote. By the way, did you hear that we just took 550 metric tonnes of Saddam's yellow cake out of Iraq?

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 02:19:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

have their heads up their evacutory canals?

Truth and common sense is not a Democratic verses Republican thing.

Now, if you read my post you would have noted that the Bush lies were only attached to the Iraq invasion, not to the invasion of Afghanistan.

In Afghanistan the Democrats were as equally quilty as the Republicans of seeking vengence and scapegoating rather than justice in the hysterical and mob-rule rush to throw out the criminal law and to embrace international vigilantism.

Wow! "500 tons of yellow cake" is another internet viral rumor on a par with Hussein planned 9/11 with Bin Laden. I'd believe it more if you said that Saddam had a swimming pool full of chocolate cake.

 

 

 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 05:27:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"Wow! "500 tons of yellow cake" is another internet viral rumor on a par with Hussein planned 9/11 with Bin Laden. I'd believe it more if you said that Saddam had a swimming pool full of chocolate cake."

I suppose the New York Times is in on the ruse.

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 06:55:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]

...I mean, when you shoot it like that...

Do you realize that you have completely blown the Niger Yellow Cake nonsense out of the water? You are never allowed to reference that as a salient point for invasion, Valerie Plame or anything else.

If he already had Yellow Cake to bake, why would he look for more?

"Although the material cannot be used in its current form for a nuclear weapon or even a so-called dirty bomb..."

Damn! It isn't even DANGEROUS. Who woulda thunk that Bush would make a big deal out of thin air?

What makes me sad is that for every bit of the harmless variety of Uranium we removed, in it's place we have covered the landscape in highly radioactive depleted Uranium shells, guaranteed to keep an American presence there killing people for decades after we leave...

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 10:32:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The yellowcake he is referring to we have always known about.  It was for generating electricity.  It was not part of the WMD conversation.  Notice he said they got rid of it today, not they discovered it today.

The Canadians bought it from Iraq today.  This is really a non-story the cons hope will make it sound like there really was WMD to people who aren't paying attention.

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:26:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Rich: “The yellowcake he is referring to we have always known about.  It was for generating electricity.  It was not part of the WMD conversation.” 

Iraq is sitting atop one of the world’s largest proven reserves of oil and gas, and they need nuclear energy to produce electricity? Any person who makes a statement like that has a serious credibility issue.


iran

That’s the same kind of lie that Iran is currently trying to perpetrate.


iran


Iraq purchased uranium. Iraq enriched uranium. Iraq was working on securing more uranium.

"After nearly a six-month investigation, a special panel reported to the British Parliament July 14 that British intelligence had indeed concluded back in 2002 that Saddam Hussein was seeking to buy uranium. The review panel was headed by Lord Butler of Brockwell, who had been a cabinet secretary under five different  Prime Ministers and who is currently master of University College, Oxford.

The Butler report said British intelligence had "credible" information -- from several sources -- that a 1999 visit by Iraqi officials to Niger was for the purpose of buying uranium:
The U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence reported July 7, 2004 that the CIA had received reports from a foreign government (not named, but probably Britain) that Iraq had actually concluded a deal with Niger to supply 500 tons a year of partially processed uranium ore, or "yellowcake." That is potentially enough to produce 50 nuclear warheads."

We found enriched uranium in Iraq
.
The presence of enriched uranium confirms some of the claims by Khidir Hamza.

Nobody knows how much enriched material was moved to Russia.

Nobody denies that Iraq once had a full fledged nuclear development program.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 05:21:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You sent us to the NYT.  They told us it wasn't for WMD.  Go argue with yourself.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 08:41:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I would only add that the Taliban were "harboring" al Queda because al Queda provided direct and essential military support for removing the Soviets from Afghanistan, support that had been available because al Queda had itself been supported by the USA.  When the USA demanded that Bin Laden be turned over, the Taliban, with justification and very reasonably according to every tenet of international law, said that they would hold extradition hearings on Bin Laden when the USA turned over the evidence of his involvement in 9/11.   The USA refused to follow the international law of extradition, refused to provide any evidence that Bin Laden was involved in 9/11, and violated international law by invading and overthrowing the government of a sovereign nation.

This is not about liking or not liking the Taliban, it is about following our U.S. Constitution that says our international treaties of international law are OUR OWN supreme law of the land. 

"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Article VI.

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 01:26:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]

A much needed insertion of factual background. Thank you.

That's what most people DIDN'T seem to take away from watching Charlie Wilson's War - that it was actually a primer on how we started the snowball rolling down the hill way back when.

Then were startled by the inevitable avalanche...

This is part of what confuses me when Conservatives rail on about taking "personal responsibility" for one's actions - and in the next breath deny responsibility for their country's actions and let out cries of "THEY always blame America!" without understanding the irony or the hypocrisy therein. I want America to take responsibility for it's actions, live up to it's agreements, and actually be the shining hope Conservatives claim they want but repeatedly undermine through their actions.

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 02:00:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Imagine that Chile was the super power and in issued a warrant for the arrest of Henry Kissinger for his crimes involved in the over throw of the elected government of Chile. Then imagine they asked the USA to turn over Kissinger immediately, but the USA said what is the evidence? Then imagine that instead of providing the evidence that Chile sent in strike forces that not only attempted to capture Kissinger but bombed the White House and Pentagon and overthrew the Bush administration. Gee, how would Americans take that? Would we think that Chile was doing us a favor because Bush had such low ratings and no one liked his governement anyway? 

 Of course the analogy is not 100% but it should be close enough to give the picture of why the invasion of Afghanistan was not the glorious adventure that the USA paints it.

 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 02:19:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I think your analogy breaks down a little also because Kissinger was an integral part of the government whereas Bin Laden wasn't actually part of Afghanistan's government.

But you're on the right track. And you don't NEED a hypothetical. Not as long as old friend of Ollie North, Cubana flight 455 bomber, killer of 73 passengers (and to bring it back around to Kissinger), Luis Posada Carriles remains on America's soil (since 2005) despite extradition proceedings by both Panama and Venezuela.

See, when they say, "You can't make this stuff up," it's because you don't have to. It's already there for the taking.

Remember George W. Bush's words:  “If you harbor terrorists, you are a terrorist.”

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 02:41:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The Taliban acts as a ruling authority in Afghanistan that also takes up arms against NATO forces. They arent considered a legit ruling body by most countries

Al Qaeda is mostly foreign fighters from other parts of the middle east operating terrorist and insurgent ops in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq (not so much though). Not counting other international ops they have going.

They have cooperated in the past.  But they are two different bodies, but still dangerous and actively recruiting fighters

IF Bush can pull off his diplomacy and convince Iran to slow down on the nuclear energy, they are a former ally  and a sworn enemy of Al Qaeda. After 9/11 Iran helped us capture members of Al Qaeda.

The Supreme Ayatollah in Iran is a reasonable man, thats why he is the one in charge and NOT the President.

As allies with HUGE oil reserves, A combined Iraq/Iraq duo operating on their own against Al Qeada and assisting us in Afghanistan would be huge for us in the eyes of the world.

Plus it calms down Israel.

You keep your friends close and your enemies closer--we can keep an eye on Iran and promote Democratic change as an ally alot faster than we can as enemies. 

Placing US corporate interests in Iran means we can place CIA assets in the region that much easier.

With out humanitarian support going to Iran and Iraq, we maintain combat effectiveness while still conducting less fuel intensive operations from Iran versus missions from other places in the region.

This is a very good opportunity to maintain our edge and maintain a presence in the region while allowing Iraq to become independent.  

by calturner on 07/19/2008 07:25:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Tim ended this discussion pre-emptively, and yet you continue the fantasy.  It doesn't matter how good a tactical choice bases in Iran would be, Iran won't allow it.  Your options are limited exclusively to taking position by force, which means invasion, which means Iraq Part II, which means no international support, which means failure.

by OneHitKill on 07/20/2008 04:39:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Its only a matter of what Iran's price is--we know they have one.

Your PNAC mentality isnt working towards Change at all.

by calturner on 07/20/2008 09:20:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That's the first time I've ever been accused of having a "PNAC mentality."  With all due respect, YOU'RE the one talking about forcing US bases where they aren't welcome.

by OneHitKill on 07/20/2008 09:39:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Iran wants money and stability. The Iranian President is on a long leash to draw attention, but until the Ayatollah speaks out about attacking Israel, theres really nothing to worry about.

But after they faked the missile tests and their false bravado went away and they just happen to stop reporting on the Iranian influence on Iraqi violence--the talks continue.

Iran is just making a move for more ground to gain in these negotiations. War means nothing gained for Iran.

Iraq needs an ally against Al Qaeda--the only one they have is Iran. 

by calturner on 07/21/2008 01:24:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]

but until the Ayatollah speaks out about attacking Israel, theres really nothing to worry about.

From my point of view, even after the Ayatollah speaks about attacking Israel, there's really nothing to worry about.  It wouldn't be the first time a religious leader in the Middle East made an empty threat, and Israel can take care of itself.  It's ready to wear big-boy underwear now, and stop drinking from the tippy-cup.

Again, I don't disagree with your principle, but in case you haven't noticed, we ain't the most popular country in school anymore, and neither is Israel.  Both countries are young and petulent, with a tendency to throw violent tantrums.  If Iran is ready to forget about that, not to mention 55 years of tension, and say Mi casa es tu casa, then I have a puente to sell them.

by OneHitKill on 07/21/2008 02:24:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Boy, are they gonna be mad when they find out the truth!

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 02:34:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I won't tell them if you won't.

by OneHitKill on 07/21/2008 06:25:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Yes, it is a risk to lump the Taliban in with Al Qaeda.  But the big difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is that unlike Sadam's regime/Iraq, the Taliban did in fact have a close relationship with Al Qaeda.  Afghanistan, through the Taliban, really and truly was a safe haven for terrorists. 

So I think I understand the point you're trying to make.  But, truth be told, the U.S. fight IS against both the Taliban AND Al Qaeda because the Taliban chose (at least initially) to protect Bin Laden and deliberately allowed their country to be used as a base of operations for terrorism against the U.S..  If the Taliban were to regain power, it's not a stretch to assume that Al Qaeda would be more than happy to pick up where they left off.

 

by newseven on 07/19/2008 07:51:39 PM EST


The Taliban cannot be given authority over the region because of their past and current relationship with Terrorists in the region.

Meanwhile Iran controls so much of the Straight, theres plenty of water for at least two Carrier Strike Groups to operate tactical strikes/air support over Afghanistan, with Iranian airspace to use or better an airbase in the nook between Iran/Afgh/Pakis, would allow us 24/7 offensive operations capability and make this war end alot faster.

Tactically Iran is the place to be.

 

by calturner on 07/19/2008 10:36:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In the last 50 years, Iran has invaded no one, while the USA has never stopped invading one country or another that whole time.   The USA has no national interests in the region, only commercial interests. The USA has no business  violating the airspace of other nations even Iran. USA offensive military operations in the region are all politically and morally offensive as well.  WE have no tactical reason to be in Iran except in the interest of empire.

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 01:38:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
One problem we as Americans have is this board game RISK mentality, where we can just push players around, and where every country has only one agenda. Think about our country, just how diametrically opposed are say the ACLU and KenTX. You think Iran is any different? One faction in Iran wants to work with Syria and Hezzbollah to restore the so-called Islamic crescent. This is where they are most dangerous to us. On the other hand, that region of the world is Muslim, if no one has noticed, and why the hell don't they have the right to govern themselves as they see fit. KenTX et al want to spread Democracy everywhere, 'cept of course in the United States. However, if you believe that we have a right to natural resources, like oil, and believe we have the obligation to protect our assets by force, then the Crescent and those looking to restore it would probably bother you.

On the other hand, as it has been said here, the Taliban are on a completely different page. How could anyone have possibly confused the Amish with Wall Street brokers, and further, how could anyone have possibly gotten them both to agree on fighting a common enemy?!?

We don't need Iran's help though, in the region, all we need to do is get James Bond back in action. Didn't he take them on single handedly? Or was that Rambo? No, wait, sorry, they worked with the Taliban (or the Freedom Fighters as they were then known, the CIA trained Muhadeen) against the commies.

As long as their is heroin in the region, there will be money and conflict, the two common elements of all wars, from Troy to Viet Nam. Heroin is the lifeblood of the region and I doubt that the Taliban will eradicate it anymore than the British, the Russians, or the DEA.

by tiggerporn on 07/19/2008 11:47:02 PM EST


Obama's centrist militant blather about Afghanistan is a sign that he really doesn't have real foreign policy principles beyond the usual political expediency concerns. 

Unless a radical change in direction is made in the policy toward Afghanistan -- a change in fundamental principles in foreign relations -- Afghanistan is already a lost cause for US foeign policy. 

We are aiding and abetting the war lords and drug lords growing opium poppies and the opium trade is as high as it has ever been. We are supporting Hamid Karzai who is protecting the war lords from prosecution, while the war lords continue to prevent the development of democracy in their territories.  &nb sp; Karzai has hardly any influence beyone Kabul and only has that control because he won't  challenge the war lords and local dictators.

Our current policy in Afghanistan puts the local villiagers in direct danger by leaving them defenseless to the Taliban insurgents after the US and NATO troops pass through.  There is no Afghanistan structure for local villiage defense and self rule.  In much if not most of Afghanistan, women are still as oppressed under the current government as they were before.

In sum, the U.S. has failed in Afghanistan as much as we have failed in Iraq to understand the people and to support the real education in democracy and reform and instead have merely supported hacks and gangsters in the Afghanistan government.  

We have already lost Afghanistan and more troops there will only prolong the agony because there is no goal or strategy to attain the goal. 

 


 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 12:54:56 PM EST


You assume Obama will continue with no goal and no acknowledgment of the problems you mention.  If I  am aware of them and you are aware of them, it stands to reason Obama is aware of them.

Obama has stressed the importance of having a mission in foreign affairs and I am going to assume he will attempt to focus the UN mission in Afghanistan.

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 01:06:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Obama may be aware of the problem, but so far he has said absolutely nothing to indicate that his awareness has led to any change in view of the problem. That's my point.  People are assuming so many things about Obama that I find have no basis. 

 The assumption that Obama would oppose telecom amnesty was based on his own promising words, but he didn't live up to that.  So I see not basis to assume he will live up to something that he hasn't even promised to do. When Obama articulates how he would change foreign relations or what a differnt foreign policy looks like, or what a goal in Afghanistan would be then I might give him the benefit of the doubt. But even before he has stated what the goal in Afghanistan is, he has started talking about shifiting toops from Iraq to Afghanistan. That is irresponsible. 

 I'm not saying support McCain who is a nut-case pure and simple. I'm simply saying that so far in his campaign, the only thing that Obama has said that suggests a change in foreign policy is that talking is good.  Of course talking is good, and a thousand times better than anything McCain has suggested, but while Obama has suggested a kinder gentler foreigh policy, he has not articulated any change in direction for foreign policy, only a softening of the hard line approach.

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 02:05:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Did someone clone me??

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 02:12:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"Aww Hell! Let's just bring everybody home!"

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 01:10:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...better than "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" or "...ten years, fifty years, a hundred years, a thousand years! ...that's not too important."

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 02:08:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Hey, KenTX, finally you said something that makes some sense. But of course you ruined it by exaggerating and saying "everybody" and not using common sense to determine where U.S. troops are stationed legally or illegally, supporting dictators or democracies, etc.

 

 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 02:09:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Iraq and Afghanistan are democratically elected allies who are carrying the burden of fighting al Qaeda. But according to you, we should abandon them, even though congressional democrats voted overwhelmingly to invade them.

by KenTX on 07/21/2008 03:32:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]

What do "democrats" and "liberals" have to do with each other?

As Harold Ford, Jr proves - one of these things is NOT like the other....

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 04:57:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
     Afg. is an echoeing, cavernous sinkhole, but Obama's not in trouble, we are. You're 100% right and 0% wrong when you address the absolute necessity of using Nato and a unified Global force to "fill-in" the pothole that Afg. has become in the world...and Obama seems to instinctively know how to use that political shovel. 
     Long term military presence in places like Iran, Pakistan, and Iraq..."in order to keep an eye on things" is ludicrous however. It would be like jamming a camera into a heart surgery patient's stented artery to "make sure nothing clogs it again" see the Irony there...we would forever be that fat camera lodged in the main artery of any country we think we should be occupying!
     We must have a true meeting of the minds among the US and aforementioned countries, establish a solid trust, and then generously give them what they need in order to drive out the "Evil-Doers" under their own effective, tribal hospices. Agree with you 75% overall...

by Horseman on 07/21/2008 02:14:28 PM EST


Afghanistan in a nation created by the political fiat of European powers, and though it has many unresolved issues due to being carved out by Europeans, it is not a place to be insulted by calling it "a pothole." 

Also, I see no evidence that Obama knows how to use a shovel in any way other than shoveling the BS as any good politician does.

Obama says the Taliban are our enemies in Afghanistan but the Taliban never did a single thing to attack or threaten the USA before the invasion. The Taliban are religious based nationalists who fought back against the USA invasion and are now fighting against our the long term occupation and the puppet government that we set up. How does that make them our enemies? 

Obama doesn't have to define victory in Iraq because Obama is arguing for the withdrawal of combat troops from Iraq and a reemphasis on Afghanistan, but Obama can no more define victory in Afghanistan than McCain can define victory in Iraq. 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 05:18:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Keeping in mind that the original reason we went into Afghanistan was Bin Laden, not some neo-con wet dream (okay, okay, the acknowledged reason...), I'd have to conclude that Afghanistan is an even worse failure of Foreign Policy than Iraq.

Can you think of a single person in Bush's inner circle who wouldn't turn his ass over in a heartbeat for $50 Mil? I can't. And yet, that has been the bounty on Bin Laden's head since '05. Three years of $50 Million dollars (now worth 42.5 Million - Thanks again, George!) just sitting there waiting for someone to say "There he is!" and retire to an island somewhere, yet no one has come forward.

Republicans - incompetent yesterday, today and on into the horizon....

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 05:49:27 PM EST


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