Debt Crisis and Bankruptcy

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A few years ago the Republican Congress passed a bankruptcy bill opposed by liberals/progressives.
I never made the effort to understand the details of the bill.  Now we are smack in the middle of this debt crisis that aside from helping bring down the economy, has ruined the financial situation of individuals.  I'd like to ask if anybody knows or has read or can refer to some information that explains how the bankruptcy bill of a few years ago is now beginning to show its ugly consequences. Or did it ultimately not matter?  Just looking for some education here. Thanks.

David

< Wag the Dog or Wag the War? | Michael Hirsh's Republican Framing on the Surge >
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It is my understanding that the new bankruptcy laws altered the course and adjusted some of the procedures for filing chapter 7 and 11, but for the common man it is pretty much the same process with just a bunch more paperwork to complete and file... Businesses on the other hand have a much more complex legal framework and procedure to endure - small businesses especially were hit hard by the new regulations... I'm sure these new laws didn't help the current economic situation, but this avalanche has been a long time coming with or without it - when we spend more than we have, there's always gonna be bad consequences!!! Thanks!!!

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 02:55:30 PM EST


Is some interesting info.

It's not fair and balanced but it's interesting and has lots of links.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 03:04:09 PM EST


Dave, you're asking a really interesting question. Why not ask Ana to book a guest to discuss this topic?

Maybe this guy, or anyone who's familiar with the bill and how it ties into (and partly led to) our tanking economy.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 03:14:17 PM EST


You must understand that this law was written by the credit and mortgage industry. The same guys who gave us the mortgage crisis. Yeah!

First  you must show proof of  income by providing federal tax returns from the last tax year. If you owe taxes..those will be paid first before you can file for bankruptcy...good luck with that. 

Then the  law requires people over a certain income to file Chapter 13, the 'repayment' plan vice Chapter 7...debt liquidation.

In the past you could chose based on your personal needs. If you one of the people who must file Chapter 13, and theres a nifty formula that you use to determine that, it sucks to be you.

The rule is that if you can pay at least $6,000 to creditors over 5 years, your only option is Chapter 13 bankruptcy.  Thats just about everyone....

Before, any repayment was after you paid your reasonable living expenses determined by a judge. Now  "reasonable"  ; living expenses are determined by a IRS publication, as you might guess it's no where near what you really spend to live. Also many expenses are not allowed.

For example private school expenses for children are limited to $1,500 per child per year. This from the "voucher" people no less!

Also under the old laws landlords and banks could not evict you until the bankruptcy hearing was adjudicated...not so today...they can bounce you almost immediately.

So in a nut shell the law forces most debtors into Chapter 13, increases the repayment amounts over a longer period, reduces the amount you have for living expenses and allows for immediate evictions.

Whats not to like?

The biggest impact I see is that the  law will probbaly increase homelessness.  I have no figures on that... they dont track how you got homeless just that you are. And as expected the numbers are dramatically increasing.

by MRFred on 07/21/2008 04:19:07 PM EST


Most of your post seems about right to me based on my understanding, I just have one comment on this...

"For example private school expenses for children are limited to $1,500 per child per year. This from the "voucher" people no less! "

Ok, if you're at the point of bankrupcy you probably should have taken your kids out of private school long ago.  Frankly I have no sympathy for the McMansion living, Escalade driving morons who lived well beyond their means through over use of debt to finance a lifestyle they had no business living.  Hard working, middle class folks hurt by job losses or huge medical expenses should have a reasonable way out.  Irresponsible people living well beyond their means should be punished for their stupidity and excess. 

by alphasigmookie on 07/21/2008 05:18:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Oh I agree for the most part, I was commenting on the irony of it.

 "For example private school expenses for children are limited to $1,500 per child per year. This from the "voucher" people no less! "

Consider the conservative hyperventilating about how wonderful private schools are and that they are the only answer to "failing"public education system.  You don't have to go very far to find the  voucher program being referred to reverently as a sacrosanct "new"idea of the right.

Except when a few contributions from the credit and mortgage industry come in..then fuck the kids! Let'm go to a failing public schools. Save the banks!

It's shows that these guys would shoot their own mother for a few bucks.

by MRFred on 07/21/2008 08:23:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The GOP loves private school but not if their kids have to go to school with poor deadbeat children who file bankruptcy.

If that is the way its gonna be, why even go?

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:35:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"The GOP loves private school but not if their kids have to go to school with poor deadbeat children who file bankruptcy."

Why is the GOP advocating school vouchers, so all children can attend private schools? Why are Democrats fighting school choice?

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 05:43:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Thats it, pure and simple.

Once that's done they can lower the wages of teachers and get pack a few dollars of property taxes.

Sad.

by MRFred on 07/22/2008 07:14:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
They know how much they earn, relative to teachers in private schools. Perhaps they would like to comment.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 08:43:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]

In Texas private school teachers don't get paid shit.  They usually are only part time employees with little or no benefits.  Often the pay is hourly.  The job is completely unregulated, no teaching license required, and generally employees people who aren't licensed or only want a part-time job.

It is probably different in other states, but in Texas, being a public school teacher vs private is like the difference between a street walker and a call girl.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 10:38:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]

even creating a whole "private school" myth.

The Rethugs want to privatize schools, and turn it over to  contributor owned corporations. When the Repugs get a majority in a statehouse, they cut, cut, cut, underfunding low income areas plus all the other tricks then stand up and rant about the failing schools.

Vouchers are the magic solution and they can make a few bucks! 

The only way they can deliver on that and make a profit is to cut wages and services.

The private schools push off the special needs kids , problem children and the like to the public schools, avoiding the heavy lifting mandated by the courts. Bad for the bottom line.

It also plays to the religious right base who want to segregate the kids from the godless heathens and teach creationism in Jesus camps funded by tax dollars. It also makes the old racists the GOP bought off in the sixties happy, cant be going to school with no black folk now can we.

by MRFred on 07/22/2008 10:50:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
on that last part regarding the religious right and schools.

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 10:53:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]

It isn't it funny how every single time the GOP proposes a solution to our problems it has this "oh-by-the-way" side effect of massively enriching the wealthy or corporations?

School's failing?  Let's turn it into a profit generator for private companies, that will solve your problem!

Economy failing?  Let's massively cut taxes on the wealthy and corporations, that should turn things around!

Scared of terrorism?  Let's invade an oil rich nation with a privatized army and give the contracts to our friends with no oversight and the crude to Big Oil!

Gas prices exploding?  We should let private oil companies drill everywhere even though we admit this won't have any real effect on what you pay for gas, then everything will be great.

Generic industry is failing?  Let's remove those pesky government regulations, everything will be better then!

I could do this all day.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 11:05:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Here are the facts from the Department of Education:

“According to a 2005 report from the OECD, the United States is tied for first place with Switzerland when it comes to annual spending per student on its public schools, with each of those two countries spending more than $11,000 (in U.S. currency).”

So the government could give every underprivileged student $11,000 in vouchers for private school, and give every family of average income a tax deduction for $11,000 per student for private school, and still come out ahead!

This reminds me of Hillary Clinton’s proposal for a $5000 “Baby Bond” to be paid into an S&P 500 Index account. After they did the math and figured out that the account would be worth approximately $4 million when the baby reached age 65, and people would no longer need to be cared for by the federal government, the Clinton Campaign quickly rescinded the proposal.

It just goes to show that liberals are math and logic impaired.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 11:20:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]

(at least, for the purposes of sarcasm, you are missing it)

Why wouldn't privatized schools be good? One thing you can count on is full attendance. They don't want to lose an income stream, and since one of their big selling points is smaller classroom size, they wouldn't change their minds and decide that 30 to 35 students is actually better for the student. Nah! Never happen!

Look what profit margin and full attendance has done for privatized prisons! We're puttin' 'em away in greater numbers than ever and the companies are raking it in. And, you don't have to worry about recidivism if you don't let them out!

And don't forget how well Blackwater and the like have performed in place of the government as a privatized army - let's privatize ALL the armed services and just go full mercenary (full "commando" is optional...)

NO! The "promote the general welfare" part has nothing whatsoever to do with educating our kids or protecting our overseas officials, and I think it's quite silly of you to ask...if you do, which I'm sure you would! HARR-rumPH! That means, "keep taxes low so rich people can have and poor people can admire from afar." What else could "general welfare" mean?

After all, it's much more important for our youth to be indoctrinated in the ways of Jesus at a private school, where they can soak up all the nuance found in 'intelligent design' and 'sex education' is still being taught with Nancy Reagan Flash Cards ("Just say No") and not have to deal with any of that 'critical thinking' jive.

If only you Liberals would get your head out of the sand, get out of the way, and let the free market work it's magic. Why pay taxes to the government when you can pay monopolistic, overpriced fees to a business instead?

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 05:23:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The cost of private school in Utah is $6000 per year, and the cost of private school in New York is $12,000 per year. Roughly equivalent to the cost per student in the public school system. 

So which schools do parents (the taxpayers) want their children attending?

Public school kids spend a lot of time at security check points.
public school

Private schools kids get to wear cool looking sweaters and ties.private schools

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 11:24:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]

If we send all the public school kids to the private schools the private schools will become the public schools except with endless cost-saving measures that result in a decrease in quality of the product.  Its called "business".

You seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that an average private school kid is almost completely unrelated to an average public school kid.  When you take the kids waiting at the security checkpoint, slap a blazer on them, charge them out the ass to go to school, do you think they will all magically transform into Carlton?

Ken's inner city private school kid 

Its just so fucking stupid.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 11:42:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I didn't say send all public school kids to private schools.

I'm in favor of using my tax dollars to provide poor children with a private education. Unfortunately, not all poor kids will be able to make it into private schools.

Barack Obama was a poor kid, and he had what it took to make it into private schools. I believe there are millions of poor kids with similar aptitude who need to be given a chance to excell.


There will still be a place for public schools. These "institutions of learning" should be reserved for hard-core problem students who are destined for a jail cell. Public schools could change their curricula to classes on how to make license plates, prison shivs, street crack, and hillbilly heroin.

Public schools could become like reform schools, only without the bars.   

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 11:56:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]

You want publicly funded private schools but you want the private schools to be able to pick and choose who they accept?

ROFLMAO

Please!  Run on this issue!  This is electoral gold.  Then call Obama an elitist.

What a clown.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 12:00:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
A poor kid can get financial aid to attend the University of Texas. But he first must get accepted to gain admission.

Otherwise, he goes to Travis County Community College until he can get his grades up. The same thing will work with school vouchers.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 12:10:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Colleges are not the same because there is no free option.  Nor is there a Travis County Community College.  There is an Austin Community College but it is only slighter cheaper than UT but it is much easier to get in to.

Also, it is only cheap for residents in its taxing authority.  If you live where I do, for instance, you are not in any community college tax authority and therefore have to pay dramatically higher rates and the argument falls apart altogether.

Now, if you are suggesting community college should be free for all students, then we have the jumping off point for a productive conversation.  Otherwise, good luck with the election!

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 12:30:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have consistently said that all poor students should receive financial aid for college, and high school. Right now is not a good time to talk to me about any of this kind of stuff. My car just got broken into for the second time in a month. Both times in Memphis. Right now I'm thinking about all out civil war.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 01:11:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't have a lot of experience with Memphis but it always seemed pretty rough to me.

You have advocated for aid for college for the poor.  We agree on that.  But we can also agree we don't have a free vs. a market situation in higher education.  Or in health care where the idea is being weighed.  This seems to be in the offing as a general approach.  I am curious to see how it will work out, personally.

Hope the car thing works out.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 01:36:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do not keep your GPS in your car. It will guarantee a break in. I left it in the parking lot for a few minutes. By the way, they are selling Garmin Nuvis at Best Buy for $150. That's a good deal I picked up five minutes ago. Now for the key cylinder. Man, I hate criminals.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 02:02:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And then they can try and privatize as many schools as they can.

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 09:46:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]

The cons love vouchers because they love privatizing shit because it creates massive profits for corporations.  The Dems are fighting it because we don't want education privatized.  We have seen what that has done for, say, military support services.

The GOP does not give a rat's ass about educating anyone.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 10:30:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Which is really short-sighted considering that business owners depend upon a cheaply educated stable supply of workers.

Again, health care and education should be as cheap as possible if not free for all US Citizens.  A healthy, educated population is a more productive, less violent one that makes better decisions.

It's so obvious a point that I shouldn't have to type it more than once but sadly I do.

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 10:52:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Credit Card debt is no longer claimable - so even those who DO qualify for Chapter 7 have to repay the CC companies - often the very reason bankruptcy is contemplated...

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 05:01:16 PM EST


My uncle just went through a Chapter 7 personal bankruptcy, and all of his CC debt was absolved - are you thinking of specific case law? If they couldn't wipe out Credit Cards, then what is the use? :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 07:30:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He just got his discharge recently, within the last 2 months...

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 08:30:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Not arguing, just wondering when.

I'm sure there are exceptions to everything.

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 04:54:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
When he went in to file.

by bobo1 on 07/22/2008 10:26:02 AM EST

[ Parent ]

And it's already done?

Wow.

Both of mine took a lot longer than that and I had practically nothing either time. One in the late 70's (which I found out later was completely unnecessary) and one in the late 90's. It could be that my memory has stretched out a stressful time-frame...dunno, but it seemed to take close to a year.

Obviously, things have changed to the point where my own experience has become irrelevant

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 04:59:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He was explaining to me that what the lawyers told him that essentially the process and features of the chapter 7 had not changed except for the massive amount of new paperwork to be filed... He said that the new laws were mostly aimed at small business and corporate bankruptcies, which are apparently much more complicated and expensive!

by bobo1 on 07/22/2008 07:20:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

that it does not go far enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Preventi on_and_Consumer_Protection_ Act

has the details.

as far as i am concerned, chapter-7 style filing should be the exception rather than the norm (which should be chapter-13 style filing).

 
bankruptcy should not be used as a means of evading debt; instead the debtor should be "forced" (assuming they have not become completely crippled due to a debilitating illness or accident) to repay their debts. in other words, it is chapter-7 filing that needs to be means tested as an exceptional case.

i also disagree with the current state of affairs where debtors can "protect" certain assets (like a home) from creditors even under bankruptcy provisions---for all i care, the bankrupt can move into a crappy apartment, sell their home, and use the proceeds to repay their outstanding debt. likewise for a car or other means of personal transportation---the bankrupts can use public transport or get a bicycle or work off their lard butts by walking.

 

some people like to protest draconian bankruptcy laws by pointing to studies (http://www.consumeraffairs .com/news04/2005/bankruptcy _study.html) showing that a significant fraction of personal bankrupticies are caused by high medical expenses.

however, the way to handle that "problem" (assuming this is a problem) is not by making it easy to file bankruptcies (esp. chatpter-7 style), but by reducing the cost of medical care and by promoting a healthier overall lifestyle.

 

rather than adopt a frugal lifestyle, and rather than saving instead of spending like crazy, whiny americans seem to want to just pass on the burden of their profligate lifestyles onto the shoulders of others. making bankruptcy extremely hard to file, and forcing debt repayment with future income, is the proper way to make sure that creditors are not made to pay the cost of someone else's irresponsible behavior. 

by neo on 07/21/2008 06:31:25 PM EST


whiny americans seem to want to just pass on the burden of their profligate lifestyles onto the shoulders of others
I guess getting canned fro the McCain campaign didn't dampen your spirits Phil!

by MRFred on 07/21/2008 07:42:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
to clip Phil's excerpt on medical costs above. It was a gem, and it gives us the solution to our health care problems!

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 07:49:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

the bankrupts can use public transport or get a bicycle or work off their lard butts by walking...showing that a significant fraction of personal bankrupticies are caused by high medical expenses.however, the way to handle that "problem" (assuming this is a problem) is not by making it easy to file bankruptcies (esp. chatpter-7 style), but by reducing the cost of medical care and by promoting a healthier overall lifestyle.

 

I'll ask my mother why she developed Alzheimer's and lost her house to pay her bills... obviously she lived a very unhealthy nonsmoking, non drinking low body mass life style.

Actually I cant, she stopped talking 3 years ago.

by MRFred on 07/21/2008 08:10:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My mom's lupus is due to her "lazy" immune system so...

Do they sell mini-bootstraps for immune system cells and brain cells?

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 08:28:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]

a person who assumes debt needs to consider:

(a) the need for the debt (necessity vs. convenience).

(b) the riskiness of the debt (ability to pay back the loan under varying personal and economic circumstances).

(c) some form of insurance to mitigate this risk (either through 3rd parties, or through friends and family).

only after carefully evaluating such factors should a person assume debt. the larger and more widespread the debt, the greater the consideration that needs to be given to these factors.

anyone who does not consider such factors before taking on debt, and ends up in a __non-catastrophic__ situation where they are unable to pay back the debt---deserves to be punished.

if you want to call this a bootstrap, so be it.

by neo on 07/21/2008 09:06:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You wrote:

"...only after carefully evaluating such factors should a person assume debt. the larger and more widespread the debt, the greater the consideration that needs to be given to these factors.

anyone who does not consider such factors before taking on debt, and ends up in a __non-catastrophic__ situation where they are unable to pay back the debt---deserves to be punished."

First off, it's driving me nuts so I have to ask, what's with the lack of capitalization? You appear to have a solid vocabulary so it makes no sense. If it's too much effort to hold the shift key here and there I can loan you some bootstraps! ;)

As for the substance of your argument, where do you expect most people to learn the systematic organizational/analytical/f inancial skills required to do what you apparently think is common sense?

If you want to argue that basic "life courses" (i.e. how to pay bills, balance a budget, avoid debt, build a savings, plan for crisis situations, etc.) should be taught in every high school, I couldn't agree more.

People SHOULD be equipped with the knowledge base to be able to deal with and preferably avoid bad financial situations.

But don't pretend that everyone who finds themselves in debt has that knowledge base and or has the GOOD FORTUNE to avoid unforeseen circumstances. I'm sure in the conservative/libertarian fantasy world, everyone has a huge savings account that prevents a medical disaster, job loss or (fill in the blank) from turning into debt, but that's not realistic in every case.

Hell, in order to build a stable financial future, many of us take on enormous debt just to pay for school. In the long run this (hopefully) pays off, but in the short/medium run it can be a serious financial burden.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 09:16:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]

i don't capitalize because i tend to think and type very fast---capitalization slows me down sufficiently that my train of thought suffers. i reserve capitalization and markup for more formal communication, and not for blog posts.

 

back to the matter at hand.

it is something of a shame that we are even discussing what makes a good citizen in a modern democratic society.

a person is clearly born knowing nothing about societal complexity, but slowly learns a combination of (a) facts, and (b) meta-skills (i.e. learning how to learn) over time. they are helped in this by their parents (primarily), siblings (secondarily), close family and friends (as they grow into adulthood).

modern societies are simply too complex for someone to learn these facts and skills entirely on their own esp. if their formative years were wasted.

however, solving that problem requires other draconian steps that leebruls will either oppose outright (e.g. placing emphasis on stable 2-parent homes, encouraging well-educated, well-off couples to have/adopt children while discouraging/preventing ignorant, criminal, indigent human apes from fucking, forcibly removing children from environments that do not provide them the proper care and education needed for modern society, etc. are all considered anathema in the leebrul canon), or else requires that we allow for some people to suffer the consequences of their ways---either via direct suffering or by allowing their children to suffer.

there are no two ways about it. one can presumably imagine an ideal utopic world where there is no crime or criminality, every good thing is available as a free lunch, and we are all one big happy family.

the real world (much beloved of the reality based community) is one where humans interact with differing levels of kinship (with more emphasis on those "closer" to us than with those "farther" away), and where almost every decision involves a tradeoff in the utilization of a scare resource (time, money, natural resource, etc.).

 

while i do feel some vague sympathy for a person who did not have the advantage of a good home and proper education, i don't consider it a level of sympathy sufficiently high that some portion of my taxes go to bailing out a vast agglomeration of debt forgiveness (some small part of which may actually benefit a well-deserving individual while the rest of it goes to simply encouraging whiny spendthrifts to continue their profligate lifestyle).

in more concrete terms, yes, school curricula should include financial awareness, economic awareness, and basic arithmetic numeracy as part of what is taught in each and every grade level. i would go even further and say that schools should fail students who do not pass these courses with a sufficiently high grade---but of course, leebruls will oppose such measures and trot out various pablums (racism, multi-generational societal/cultural problems, poverty, etc.) as reasons why someone thoroughly ill-equipped to survive and flourish in modern society should still be allowed to finish school and unleash themselves onto the adult world. and then these same leebruls will complain about credit card companies preying on those too stupid to understand compound interest.

you cannot have one without the other. i am all in favor of extremely strong primary/high school curricular emphasis on mathematics, economics, and finance, _provided_ anyone failing these courses is not allowed to advance through the grades. otherwise, it is just more wasted resources---the children who pass these courses are presumably those who come from good homes where they would have learnt these things anyway, and those failing these courses are the ones who need the knowledge the most and the ones who will suffer the most later on.

by neo on 07/21/2008 10:39:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Neo is asserting that when people file bankruptcy he is angry because he has to pay for it as a taxpayer.  Why the fuck is he paying for it as a taxpayer?  Shouldn't the creidt card companies or whoever be taking the hit for making a bad loan?  Is he supporting massive taxpayer bailouts for finance companies who make bad loans?

If so, why?  He is pretty worked up about people who borrow money making bad decisions and seems to have no sympathy for them.  What about the lenders?  Shouldn't they have the responsibility to make good loans?  Why the fuck does neo inject the taxpayer and government into this equation?

If financers want to make loans and people want to borrow money, let them work it out between themselves.  There didn't seem to be any shortage of companies to loan money under the old rules?  Why did they need to be changed?

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:46:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]

and it is a big "if".

i don't support a tax-payer bailout of credit card companies, but i suspect this will eventually happen because of the deep leebrul concern for "what about the children" who might suffer, or other such crap.

i agree that credit card companies and debtors should be allowed to work out their disputes amongst themselves, as long as you also agree that if a credit card company wants to send bounty hunters after a debtor, you will not oppose that behavior.

the moment you start placing restrictions on the terms of the contract that a lender asks a borrower to sign, and the moment you start placing restrictions on the methods the lender can use to recover bad loans, you also agree (implicitly, never mind what the fuck you think or want) that lenders will use whatever power they have to rewrite the laws to their advantage.

i have stated repeatedly that i have no sympathy for lenders or borrowers---apparently, you conveniently forgot to read those passages not in tune with your sense of (in)justice.

 

leebruls have no qualms about writing laws to prevent lenders from engaging in certain types of behaviors, all in the name of protecting the poor, innocent borrower, and then turn around and complain when the legal machinery is used by the lenders to their advantage. welcome to the desert of the real. 

 

by neo on 07/21/2008 11:55:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]

what does your mother's alzheimer's have to do with bankruptcy reform.

are you seriously suggesting that it is my responsibility---as a tax payer, as a frugal saver, and as someone living in humble rental apartments while making sure that i have enough savings and liquid cash cushion before i take the significant step towards buying a house and assuming long-term debt---that it is my responsibility to pay for your mother taking on a mortgage debt or incurring costly medical expenses.

are you seriously suggesting that it is my responsibility as a stranger, any more than it is your responsibility as a child, to care for your mother when she is not capable of caring for herself.

looking at things purely from the point of view of the debtor, and deliberately picking extreme tear-jerker cases, does not constitute an argument (such platitudes are better reserved for the crap that oprah puts out each day).

any complaint against a particular form of bankruptcy law must provide for ways to reduce fraud and abuse, and provide a way for creditors to get back what they lent out (or as much of it as reasonable). every other platitude about poor suffering alzheimerous mothers vs. the big, bad money-lending multi-national corporations is just crap.

 

we live in a legal system that limits the reach of debts to individuals and their estates (i.e. the fact that a person has debt and dies without paying it back does not lead to the transferrence of that debt to the person's children).

in such a system, the only way a person can ask for debt forgiveness is if they are truly unable to earn enough money to repay the debt (i.e. the person died, or suffered an illness or accident sufficiently serious that it robs them of any ability to be employed and earn money, etc.). the "hardship" of having to adopt a frugal lifestyle and holding a steady job to pay back debts is not an acceptable excuse to file for chapter-7 bankruptcy.

 

i have known able-bodied, healthy, and thoroughly irresponsible people who have filed for chapter-7 bankruptcy multiple times, either because of failed business ventures or a profligate lifestyle, and the system just allows them to continue doing this. what i want to see is a return to the system where a able-bodied, healthy person becomes a wage-slave in order to pay off their debts. alternatively, provide for a way of debt transferrence (to legal heirs) and allow them to pay off the debt.

by neo on 07/21/2008 09:00:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm sure you're also in favor of rules to prevent predatory lending, complex and hidden fees and insanely high interest rates and penalties.

At one point in our history it was against the law to lend money at a rate of more than 10% interest. Now we have some credit card companies charging 30% interest and all kinds of crazy fees and traps (created by lawyers with the express goal of duping people into spending and losing more money).

If you *really* want to protect individuals you can start there.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 09:20:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

i consider predatory lending, complex and hidden fees, and high interest rates and penalties, to all be the work of scummy bastards who have no interest in helping honest people.

however, designing laws to prevent these practices must be carefully crafted from well-defined, broad legal principles---they cannot resort to special pleading against usury (because it was condemned in the bible) or personal hardship (fuck that) or basic innumeracy and stupidity of the borrower (the suffering is well-deserved).

it is the responsibility of individuals to use their credit vehicles wisely. it is their personal responsibility to make sure that they do not sign up for just about any credit card offer that arrives through the mail, that they do not charge up frivolous expenses without any consideration for need or their ability to pay within the grace period, and it is certainly their responsibility to assess the amount of interest they will be paying if they make only the minimum payment.

if understanding credit card fine print is too complex for them, these people should stop using credit cards.

if someone is unsure of whether or not they can make full payment within the grace period, they either resign themselves to the usurious rates of interest that a credit card company is legally allowed to charge them (however reprehensible this may be to our sense of moral conduct) or else stop using credit cards.

 

we have ended up in a whiny, cry-baby society where a person committing a crime is able to excuse that behavior saying that someone made it easy for them to get into a situation where committing said crime was simple. being given enough rope to hang oneself is not a valid reason to accuse the rope-seller of murder.

until people take personal responsibility for their choices, and until they are willing to make the sacrifices (standard economic theory about delaying current consumption to fund future consumption), they will be at the mercy of those sufficiently savvy to exploit them. i have no sympathy for either the exploiter or the exploited.

by neo on 07/21/2008 10:11:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama, or Nader/Barr?

Someone else?  

Look,  I agree we need personal responsibility, but I  also recognize (I'm a non-theist BTW) that we don't live on a small island where it's every man for himself.

There is also social responsibility, at least there sure as hell should be in any world or country worth living in. It's unreasonable and absurd to push for a country with no personal responsibility *or* no social responsibility. speaking)
 
PS---Who the hell reads A Christmas Carol and roots for Scrooge to horde his money and tell everyone else to fuck off and quit whining?

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 10:25:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]

i.e. none of the above.

just so you don't have to keep guessing, i am not a republican or democrat or libertarian or green or someother -ian/-at/-n.

for all you know, i may not even be an american. in fact, i could be an a.i. program sitting in some deep underground laboratory. do you think that is air you are breathing?

 

i have no problems with "societal responsibility", but it must be a proper combination of positive and negative incentives.

i rarely ever support or oppose anything. i always frame my opinions as "i am in favor of X if at the same time you also favor Y", where "X" and "Y" represent a balance of tradeoffs.

there is no social responsibility principle whatsoever in creating laws against predatory lending, as long as people voluntarily accept to the terms of such lending. you cannot be for personal freedom and individuality, and complain about the suffering incurred through the exercise of personal freedom and individuality.

there is no social responsibility principle whatsoever in educating people about personal finance, as long as those who fail such education are not allowed to suffer for their ignorance/stupidity.

by neo on 07/21/2008 10:55:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The whole point is that individuals are going up against giant corporations with very expensive and knowledgeable lawyers who's job it is to write things in such a way as to complicate, confuse and hide the true terms of the contract.

To say that it's "voluntary" in that context is somewhat misleading.

Besides which, I have limited patience with the no capitalization, stream of consciousness, philosophical rambling deal.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 11:39:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My friend Dave admits: A few years ago the Republican Congress passed a bankruptcy bill opposed by liberals/progressives. I never made the effort to understand the details of the bill.”

House vote
:
73 Democrats voted for it. 125 Democrats voted against it.

Senate vote
:
18 Democrats voted for it. 24 Democrats voted against it.

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 05:58:09 AM EST


"Man, I hate criminals."

Welcome to the "Bush Haters" club! We knew you'd come around....

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 05:29:53 PM EST


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