Do You Agree With The NY Times Here? I Don't...

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From Huffington Post:

The New York Times has rejected an op-ed penned by Senator John McCain in response to an op-ed by Senator Barack Obama published on July 14, members of the campaign tell the Drudge Report.


New York Times
op-ed editor David Shipley wrote in an email to McCain's staff, "It would be terrific to have an article from Senator McCain that mirrors Senator Obama's piece." But, he continued, "I'm not going to be able to accept this piece as currently written."

Shipley further explained in an email to the Drudge Report, saying:

"The Obama piece worked for me because it offered new information (it appeared before his speech); while Senator Obama discussed Senator McCain, he also went into detail about his own plans....It would be terrific to have an article from Senator McCain that mirrors Senator Obama's piece. To that end, the article would have to articulate, in concrete terms, how Senator McCain defines victory in Iraq."
In his July 14 op-ed, Obama laid out his plan for Iraq. McCain's proposed op-ed is available in full here...

(For the rest of the above piece, use the HuffPo link at the top of the page or click here)

So What Do You Think About This? I think it's ridiculous.

Why do I 100% disagree with the New York Times? Because my God, could they play into the "liberal media bias" meme any better?

Seriously, this will be the ultimate, obnoxious smoking gun conservatives will use to bludgeon the NYT over the head with for YEARS to come.  Just watch. I swear to you, I haven't read or watched a single reaction to this piece (positive or negative) so I could be wrong, but I bet my life on it.

The right wing LOVES this. Whatever the NYT think they gain from denying McCain, I think they lose far more if this story is accurate.

And look, it's not just about the right wing. I realize we can't live in fear of how the right will spin things, trust me. But the problem is you have to pick your battles, and more importantly, a LOT of moderates and independents either think The NYT is outright liberally biased or they are at least open to the idea.

I don't see how this doesn't push those people over the edge. By the way, of course there are others issues to have with this move that we can discuss, I just chose to focus on how this effects the perception of credibility for the paper and the "liberal media".

PS---This is the same newspaper that publishes work from Tom Friedman, David Brooks and Bill Kristol. And they're taking a stand on McCain?
< Michael Hirsh's Republican Framing on the Surge | Security or Payoff? >
 Display:

...yes, I agree with the Times. It belongs in the "Letters To The Editor" section, not on it's own. I found three falsehoods without even trying and it is more of a hit piece on Obama instead of an actual response to what Obama wrote. Phil Gramm would have called it whiny...

It DOES beg the question, however, of why Bill Kristol get to publish the crap he writes? Not that I think McCain actually wrote that "editorial," but it does serve up a platter not unlike Kristol's.

Hell, they said, "try again." That's a lot better treatment than most people would get.

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 05:13:33 PM EST


But I really, really don't think that level of nuanced argument is going to fly with most people.

I stand by my main point which is that this helps the right tremendously. Whatever benefit you think the NYT gets (or even if you think they are technically correct on this), it's more than cancelled out by the negative impact of this and how it will surely be presented by the MSM.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 05:39:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree with the point that the rejection will give fodder to the right-wing nuts. Why because it should.  Shipley is simply not credible.  Everything Medford Tim said about the McCain rebuttal is true, but Shipley is no abritor of truth either.  Basically, if you read Shipley's self justification, you see that he is saying he didn't like McCain's piece and that is enough for him, then he adds some baloney about nothing new and no "concrete terms" as if that is ever a criteria on on-ed pieces.

Bsically the NYT is biased, only the bias has absolutely nothing to do with "liberal" vs. "conservative" politics, it is between "yellow" verses "objective" journalism, and the NYT bias is clearly to yellow journalism that will sell product, not reporting facts.

Shipley's comments were intended to inflame and have worked very well.

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 05:50:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's not JUST fodder for the right wing nuts. It's shocking how many people (most of which are NOT right wing nuts) believe in "liberal media bias".

Yes, the right wing nuts start yelling in the echo chamber, but the problem is the rest of the media starts to repeat the echo and pretty soon low-info voters everywhere passively absorb it and start to view news through that frame of reference.

If it was JUST the right wing nuts (like with the Rachel Ray Dunkin Donuts head-scarf bullshit) it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue, at least WRT my main point.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 06:03:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The way I look at it, those people who will yell the loudest are already NOT going to think about voting for Obama and already believe the Times is Liberal. I don't think this will serve anyone but ardent noisemakers.

It all depends on who says what today, but I can't see this having much in the way of legs.

Does it help the Right? Only in the most playground of "Nyah Nyah"s. The Usual Suspects will bray, but I don't think it's something that would sway any reasonable voter's choice. Have to be a really, really petty person - and far as I can figure out, they already all support McCain...

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 05:56:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]

McCain's crap.

And I don't see this issue as anything more than a tempest in a teapot for the right-wing nuts like Drudge who are simply attempting to take attention away from Obama's Middle East trip. 

There is no "liberal bias" at the NYT otherwise they would not have supported the war and the President as they have. 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 06:04:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
No one is going to change their vote based directly on this, of course not, we agree on that.

Again, my larger point is that this really does strongly feed into the liberal media bias theme.
 
And in that bigger picture, the liberal media bias charge DOES have a LOT of direct and indirect influence on voters (because it effects how they interpret news and choose what to watch and read or not) and the media itself (i.e. people in the media are terrified of being called liberal so they go out of their way in the other direction and often accept and repeat republican framing on issues).

The NY Times is far from perfect but sometimes they do some great work. The last thing we need is another reason for average joe to dismiss one of the good stories from the NY Times as "biased crap".

Yes, the wing-nuts already believe it and the left already doesn't. But there's a large middle ground that's not fully formed that we sometimes forget about.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 06:13:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I'm thinking that the lines are pretty well divided in the
"Liberal source or not" debate. We agree that it exists, I just think it's a much smaller middle ground than you do. I figure if someone was going to take sides, they would have done so by now since the war of words has been going on since Clinton was in office.

Nuance - it's not just a word Bush can't pronounce! :-)

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 07:02:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The majority of people around you and me and the rest of us are "low-info" voters (and again, the mainstream media *will* present this story in a particular way, minus the nuance). Actually, most aren't even voters but that's a whole other issue.

But then again they might not even hear about this so never mind. 

PS---Cheryl's friend came over tonight with several magazines (People, US Weekly, Entertainment Weekly, etc.) in her purse/bag.  She told me about an email that made her scared about Obama and we briefly talked about it.

Rather than do a logical debunking of everything (they were in a hurry to get to the Sox game) I quickly told her about John McCain's first wife and about how he called Cindy a cunt.

Guess who she's voting for now? (Until she gets another email of course...)

Is that sad? Yes. Is she really that rare? No. There are millions like her, easy.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 07:32:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The NYT can take care of themselves. They said it was a horrible article and offered suggestions to help McCain fix his crappy article.

 

They chose not to.

by calturner on 07/22/2008 09:14:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I love this doosey by McCain:

"More than 90,000 Iraqis, many of them Sunnis who once fought against the government, have signed up as Sons of Iraq to fight against the terrorists."

Uh, yeah. Signed up to get the pay-offs of cash and weapons that they will be able to use against the government as soon as the US stops paying the bribes. 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 05:59:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree that the NYT has the right to reject op-ed pieces and does not simply have to provide rebuttal space to McCain. That's the point I agree with. Editorial page editors always turn down people who submit unsolicited editorials exactly in the way that McCain was turned down, including lame suggestions to what they consider to be newsworthy.

 However, I disagree with the NYT's hypocritical attempt to support their point. For example they say that they would give McCain the space if he wanted to do an op-ed that included his "concrete" definition of victory in Iraq. But they did not hold Obama to that standard. Obama's editorial argued for shifting the emphasis  from Iraq to Afghanistan but Obama did not provide a definition (in any terms, concrete or otherwise) of victory in Afghanistan that would avoid the identical quagmire currently taking place in Iraq.

 Also, as I read the Obama piece, nothing jumped out at me as "new information." There may be new inoformation there but it is hidden behind the usual anti-Taliban vigilante rhetoric.  Perhaps the NYT editor has just not been listening to Obama's speeches.

 

by Gregory Wonderwheel on 07/21/2008 05:41:00 PM EST


they have no concept of "going for the jugular".

rules of gentlemanly conduct in debate apply only when one's opponents agree to also play by the same rules. republicans have demonstrated that they do not respect any rules. attempting to be even-handed with republicans is akin to capitulating to terrorists. as long as leebruls even consider doing so (out of some misplaced sense of fairness), they will continue to get reamed up their proverbial rear-end.

in this particular instance, even when a newspaper actually decides to place truth, rationality, and proper argumentation above mere "balance", it is the leebruls who are first to cry foul. what a bunch of pathetic losers. 

by neo on 07/21/2008 06:01:07 PM EST


except that your point also doesn't apply in this situation.

So what if McCain publishes his editorial. Who is NOT aware of McCain's position on Iraq already? Will someone pick up the NY Times and suddenly have an epiphany after reading McCain's piece (or Obama's for that matter) and suddenly change their vote?


With that in mind, so what if McCain gets his op-ed published? Is it any worse than anything Bill Kristol (or David Brooks) has written for the Times?

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 06:06:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]

once again, the leebrul framing betrays itself.

yes, the purpose of editorials (or debates) is not dialectical and knowledge-dispersion; yes, it is all about rhetorical posturing and spin. however, making decisions based on how someone (esp. an unscrupulous republican thug) might portray that decision, is absolutely the wrong way to go.

 

decisions should be based on core principles---either the leebruls' core principle is "not ever giving offense or being misunderstood" (in which case, they deserve to lose every time), or else their core principles include such things as honesty, integrity, respect for truth and rationality, in which case they ought to fight all the time against republicans and republicanism, with absolutely no regard for how they might be "painted".

 

rejecting an editorial as worthless shit is precisely the right way to deal with it. mccain can complain all he wants about freedom of speech or leebrul bias---all the nytimes needs to say is that it does not print shit.

 

the other aspects of the matter---the apparent inconsistency between rejecting mccain's editorial and employing neocon nutjobs---should be rectified not by allowing mccain's diarrhea to be printed, but by booting out the cranks.

i am not defending the nytimes here either. they have far too much to pay for their past sins. i just want to see the leebruls, atleast for once, shut the fuck up about fairness when they deal with republicans.

by neo on 07/21/2008 06:43:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This particular news tidbit has me chuckling and I don't have much of a deeper response.  Yeah, it will make the McCain camp apoplectic, and feed all the liberal-media hype, but what a great snub of McCain and I feel like he deserves it today.  Why not just a big headline "I KNOW HOW TO WIN WARS!!"  What a narcissistic asshat.

by desertpear on 07/21/2008 06:05:08 PM EST


Those are probably the 5 words you never want to see on this blog, but you are absolutely right - this snub of McCain plays right into this weeks additional story of unfair media coverage for Obama and against McCain. Obama got all 3 network ANCHORS to follow him around asia and europe, while McCain gets shafted by the NY Times. I didn't read Obamas or McCains Op Eds - I don't need to try and determine their worth - all I need to see is that the Media is in Love with the Messiah and hates the Imp. Sitting here discussing actual fact and policy is worthless - the story is about the obvious unfair Liberal Bias in the MSM - and who can argue about that at this point in this campaign? No onen because its SO FUCKING OBVIOUS!!! I hope this Obama is everything they THINK he is! :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 07:38:22 PM EST


Lou Dobbs (of course) just made reference to a new poll showing that (3 to 1) Americans believe the press favors Obama.

How accurate that poll is I don't know, but with stories like this about the NY Times denying McCain editorial space, well, it'll be damn accurate soon enough.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 07:47:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Please... It ought to be 100 to 1 - its so obvious its sickening, and it has been so for months!!! I can't remember the last time a man was so adored by the Media... The only reason Obama's gonna win, even with his orgasmic press, is the fact that McCain is such a terrible candidate!!! Thanks... :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 08:35:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I gotta give you credit when you're right.  I mean seriously, the way the MSM totally BURIED the Reverend Wright story.

I mean WTF, we heard about Reverend Hagee 24/7 for months, but Wright? Barely a peep about him!

The media never talked about Rezko or the Weather Underground and more importantly, it seems like only 3% of Americans realize that McCain is a war hero/former POW *and* a maverick. And don't even get me talking about major network news.


Hell, if it wasn't for Fox News, Glenn Beck and Limbaugh, even *I* wouldn't be aware of these stories!


by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 08:44:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Any publicity is good publicity... Even you cannot tell me with a straight face that the media is not overly mastabatorial when the subject of Obama comes up - 3 Network Anchors for a non-Presidential trip? Surely you jest, bias... :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 08:56:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The media is "overtly mastabatorial" when the subject of *ratings* comes up, period.

Unless it's Fox News in which case it's about ratings *and* extreme partisan politics.  If you want to argue that the end result is the same you'd have *some* merit to your argument, but not if you think their motive for covering him is based on them secretly or openly wanting him to win.

Besides which, they GUSH over the War Hero Maverick John McCain. 

PS---"Any publicity is good publicity" might apply in Hollywood, but generally not in politics. A hyper focus on gaffes and questionable associations (real or imagined, relevant or irrelevant) is NOT helpful.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 09:08:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama is like a damn rockstar to the MSM - this is Hollywood - another unfortunate side effect of our "celebrity culture"!! :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 09:52:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Many on the right are saying "rockstar" in a disparaging way, as if to suggest that Obama supporters are like giggly school girls at a backstreet boys concert in the 90's.

The MSM has picked up on it and uses it, and again, I get that same vibe, as if they're suggesting it's a wishy-washy, trendy love affair with style, etc.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 10:01:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That you hit it right on the head and still don't see the forest for the trees? I know you are young, bias, but does it seem at all abnormal to you that despite all the negative stories, gaffes and the fact he has no experience that he is still so adored and revered? That he is going to be the President! It sends chills down my spine that we as a nation have been reduced to in terms of what we call "leadership"... And the fact that the media encourages it makes it that much more frightening... Thanks! :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 10:11:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I know you aren't young Bobo, but does it seem at all abnormal to you that despite all the negative stories, gaffes and the fact that he has poor judgement despite all his experience, that McCain is still so adored and revered?

That he might be the President! It sends chills down my spine what we as a nation have been reduced to in terms of what we call "leadership"...An d the fact that media encourages it makes it that much more frightening...Your Welcome! ;)

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 10:18:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]

12 years in the Illinois Senate, 4 years in the U.S. Senate - MORE experience than LINCOLN.

Obama has just as much experience being President that McCain has, if you didn't notice...

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 10:21:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In the US Senate before he stopped being a Senator and became a full time candidate... Lincoln lived during a time when 80 percent of the people couldn't read and make informed decisions - Do you really want to use Lincoln as your example? Really? What happened after he was elected - half the states began to leave the union!!!! That's change we can believe in!!!! Lay off the dope - seriously!!!

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 10:28:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He's brilliant. He's a constitutional lawyer and was president of The Harvard Law Review.

He's very intelligent and analytical and has a great knowledge base. He's intellectually curious and likes to consider different viewpoints.

You can't say that about most people. Oh, and if you say that makes him an "elitist" I'll say you're close, because he *is* elite. Before this fucking idiot cowboy we got now became president I think being "elite" was a requirement, or should have been.

And yeah, he's also an excellent speaker who can motivate and encourage participation. Hell a combination of traits if you ask me. I'll take that in a heartbeat over having some extra time voting in the Senate.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 10:39:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Difference is, I KNOW mine are silly.

Compare the number of votes between McCain and Obama over the last two years - and unless your calendar is a lot shorter than mine, your 143 days insanity is just another piece of Right Wing bullshit.

Unless you want to also put forward the notion that McCain has been running for President for 12 years straight on Arizona citizen's dime.

I use Lincoln as an example that "no experience" is a bullshit argument and has no place in even a semi-rational discussion. McCain doesn't have a second more experience (despite his advanced, retirement-eligible, just short of Walmart greeter age) than Obama.

 

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 10:42:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But Lincoln is (in reality, not in public opinion) not a good example because he was train wreck of a president.  Really among the worst, if not the worst.

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:58:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Shall be doomed to repeat it...

Thanks for agreeing, Rich. it's nice to see not everyone has lost their sanity on this site...

Oh what a ride this shall be!!!!

:)

by bobo1 on 07/22/2008 12:14:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
...Lincoln doesn't have to worry about "worst"....

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 12:25:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
2 words:

Habeus Corpus.

Thank you, have a good day!

:)

by bobo1 on 07/22/2008 12:38:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Bobo, it's a nice try, but you're belief system in the media bias in favor of Obama is as silly and as refutable as Christianity.

Look at the guests on Sunday shows over the last 6 months. 4 to 1 in favor of Republicans/Conservatives/H illary supporters - and that doesn't even take into account regular "panel" people who are, again, 4 to 1 Conservative.

Check out Race To The White House on a daily basis. The panels are regularly 3 to 1 in favor of Conservatives, and I had to write Dick Gregory another e-mail last week about how unattractive his obvious man crush on McCain is.

If a Democratic nominee had 1/24th the baggage that McCain has, they would have been dumped a long time ago, but McCain gets away with lies, misstatements, factual errors, and moments of insanity.

The Right wing OWNS the media in this country. There is NO Liberal bias. Just look at what's happening to the Associated Press & The L.A. Times. Gone Conservative.

Maybe, just maybe, you are like my friend down your way who is so freakin' far to the Right that Bill Buckley looked Liberal......

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 09:15:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
LA Times Conservative? You must be high... David Gregory Man Crush on McCain - you need rehab... You catching the Leslie Nielsen reference - I'm calling your spouse, you need help!!! I'll give you the point that most media outlets are owned by right wingers (Rupert Murdoch et al) but they even know what sells - compassion and scandal - Left Winger stuff... According to bias, Obama DOES HAVE the "baggage" that McCain does (Wright, Ayers, Rezko, Michelle) so why does he get a free pass on it? Why are they still so in love that they sent all 3 major News Anchors on his "photo-op" trip? Tim, you can sit in your damp Northwestern lodge and pretend that normal "low info" voters can't compute all of this "nuance", but believe me, people can see what is going on here - Not that it will have much lasting affect, but believe me, the people know which side the media butters its bread on. :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 09:50:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Bobo, might you be willing to concede that they sent all three major news anchors because Obama has a high likelihood of being the president of the United States in six months? Or that they sent the three anchors because Obama is currently the favorite and American interest in his trip to Iraq is high? 

I agree that the corporations are in it for profit, but I don't agree with the "liberal bias" aspect of it.  You really think that Obama has had a "free pass" with the press?  I think the only reason they haven't come down harder on Obama is that he doesn't have many skeletons in his closet, unlike McCain, who has been around long enough to have fossilized skeletons in there.

by desertpear on 07/21/2008 10:11:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The reason Obama gets free passes on Wright and Michelle is because those are both non-issues.  On the rest of the stuff, he gets a free pass because he's the only viable candidate who will survive an entire 4-year term.  You can't be president when your blood type is "A-primordial."

I'm calling your spouse

Bobo is calling other people's spouses.  Not cool. 

by OneHitKill on 07/21/2008 10:14:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obviously, whoever is giving Tim that particular dope is really hurting him - the poor guy thinks the LA Times is Conservative for CHRIST SAKES!!! If he won't go to rehab willingly for thinking David Gregory is anything but another left wing hack, than maybe his spouse can take him on that new reality TV show "Intervention" Perhaps your continued support of this nonsense does make you an enabler! Rehab for you too!!! :)

by bobo1 on 07/21/2008 10:23:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]

You are WAY behind the times...AND the Times...

Ever since they sold, they have been going farther and farther to the right - read ANYTHING by Jonah Goldberg and THEN try to argue the point!

News anchors go where they think a story is - for all you know, they're hoping to be on the front line of an assasination attempt. HE'S THE FRONT RUNNER! OF COURSE they will follow him around! Stop playing stupid.

Yes, the same David Gregory who did the White Man Boogey with Karl Rove - THAT David Gregory. If you don't know what I'm talking about, YOU DON'T WATCH HIS SHOW.

The reason those things you mentioned aren't harped on is because THEY ARE NON-STORIES! Rev Wright had his spotlight time, it's OVER. Reznick? Ayers? THERE'S NO "THERE" THERE! WHat do you want, hourly updates saying "Nope, nothin' yet - but stay tuned!" Michelle? Really? You think ANYTHING about Michelle Obama is NEWSWORTHY??

You picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue....

by MedfordTim on 07/21/2008 10:17:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Gregory and McCain need to go ahead and get a room.

Talk about someone who should be concerned about the appearance of media bias.  Between being Karl Rove's backup bitch and having to read all the McCain stories with one hand under the table, why are we pretending this guy is a journalist anymore?

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:49:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]

"its so obvious its sickening, and it has been so for months!!!"

Apparently it wasn't so obvious to you two weeks ago.  Here's a little something you posted about how the media loves McCain and why.

by Spencer on 07/21/2008 10:50:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The Corporate News is about heat that equals ratings and Obama has the heat right now.

You let this Media get out of hand for years and now youre suprised that the Media is a machine out of control?

Where have you been for the last 10 years?

 

Stop whining.

by calturner on 07/21/2008 10:46:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Are you telling me that Bobo is whining?

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 11:12:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The NYT wanted concrete timetables and details of his plan for victory--he failed to provide that.

McCain just went after Obama's concepts without offering enough of his own ideas to merit the space in the paper.

Thats McCain's fault. I read it on Drudge, its a shit piece with falsehoods in the article that are only attacking, noy explaining.

The NYT has an obligation to provide decent content that their editors are happy with.

The NYT published McCain's pieces in the past but they have no obligation to publish both sides of anything unless they feel it fits into the type pf product they seek to produce.

by calturner on 07/21/2008 11:48:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But again, can someone (how about you?) please explain why the NY Times decided to take this bold, principled stand now?

Where were these principles when they hired Bill Kristol? Do you honestly believe that these op-eds are much more than pieces of shit with falsehoods that are only attacking and not explaining?

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 11:54:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Kristol was hired by the publisher. McCain was turned down by the Op/Ed editor. One is football, the other baseball. Different game, different rules. Lumping them together is something Rush or O'Reilly would do to confuse the issue.

I have no argument with your "pieces of shit" conclusion...

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 12:41:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Ouch. An indirect comparison to Limbaugh and O'Reilly? Really?

All right, well, I gotta go to bed...that is it for us today. Fuck it, I'll do it live! This fucking blog sucks!

PS---Where's my Oxycontin damn it?

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 12:58:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]

No editor in their right mind wants to publish garbage unless it fits into their big picture (SELL PAPERS/GENERATE WEB HITS for advertisers).

Obama gave them something NEW to work with to make $$$!!!

McCain's piece wasnt sufficient, there was nothing new for them to generate $$$. And who knows, maybe it was a leftie payback, so what?

You nationalize the media to be "fair" (not exactly American) or you hold the entire system to account, but you cant nitpick a corporation making decisions because it seems one-sided when they have no obligation to behave in a biased manner.  

by calturner on 07/22/2008 09:23:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

According to your argument the New York Times (or any media outlet) has to give the GOP whatever they want.  Otherwise they will be playing into the liberal media bias.  I think you need to think this argument through a bit.

The NYT has published at least six editorials by McCain, endorsed McCain in the primary, they led the media charge for the war in Iraq, they hired Kristol.  Pretending they are the Village Voice is ludicrous.  If they rejected the editorial, they probably had a pretty damn good reason.  McCain needs to stop being a whiny little bitch and either meet the editorial standards like every single other editorial writer in the universe or accept it ain't getting published.

As for the fear it will cause the righties call the NYT a liberal rag, this argument is only as legitimate as your believe that the NYT could do ANYTHING to avoid this fate.  Dear God, in 2002-2003 they were reprinting Rove press releases as editorials in their name demanding we invade Iraq and the damn cons were calling them commies at the same damn time!

Talk about giving in to the Republican framing!  Hasn't Cenk taught us anything?  We have to stand up and change the very basis of the converstaion, not try to appease the deranged pieces of shit.

by ProfRich on 07/21/2008 11:24:41 PM EST


Again, you have to keep this in the context of the fact that Tom Friedman, David Brooks and for Christ's sake, Bill Kristol (!) write for the Times!

Do you really mean to say that those three clowns (in order from least to greatest WRT clownishness) always meet the "editorial standards"? I seriously doubt it.


And look, I am all for standing up to bullshit and not caving in. Like with labeling Fox News "opinion media", I think Cenk had a great idea with that and I stand by it. I also hated seeing Hillary go on Fox and I don't want to see Obama on Fox (even though he half promised to go on O'Reilly's show at some point).


You don't have to sell me on standing up, I just have a "pick your battles" attitude.  And as someone else pointed out, Obama's op-ed didn't really present "new information". I feel like the NYT explanation was flimsy on this, and you pair that together with the widely panned (across the board) Vicky Iseman (sp) story in the NYT and you have a compelling (to some) argument for the NYT being The Liberal Media Outlet.


We shouldn't give in to republican framing OR feed into it when we don't have to.

by ihavenobias on 07/21/2008 11:47:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do you really mean to say that those three clowns (in order from least to greatest WRT clownishness) always meet the "editorial standards"? I seriously doubt it.

Yes, by definition they DO meet the standards.

PAID Op/Ed writers are not held to the same standards as SUBMITTED material. This is true at every paper, everywhere. You can question the sanity of hiring them and giving them a soapbox, but once they're there, they can write what they want.

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 12:36:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I very much question the hiring of Kristol. I'll take your word on the paid vs submitted op-ed.

With that in mind, again, it just goes back to how this whole thing will be perceived, now and in the long run in the context of the perception of the NY Times and the media in general.

I know, apparently I'm alone on this here, and that's fine. I HOPE I'm wrong. I honestly haven't had a chance to see any reaction to this yet, so I'm not sure how it's being presented on tv, radio and the web. For all I know it's no big deal and no one cares.

I will say one thing though, I bet because this op-ed was turned down, far more people will read it than would have if it had just been quietly published. And I bet he'll get a nice funding/support boost with this conservative rallying cry (which might be small or irrelevant, just something to consider).

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 12:52:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]

This brings up what I think might be a new trend in the campaign.

I am getting a sense that McCain is turning more and more inward to the people who are already supporting him.  His initial unwillingness to let Graham go, this insane "blame Barak for gas prices ad", his attempt to force the NYT to print something they felt was not up to standards, his refusal to accept pretty much every development in Iraq/Afghanistan.  It all adds up to a man (and a campaign) becoming increasingly out of touch.

I think this might be due to a number of factors.  First, McCain being the invisible man and all he and his handlers seem to not give a damn what he does since no one is paying attention anyway.  A lot of times he doesn't even seem to be campaigning. 

For example, in the AP story cited elsewhere, what the fuck is he doing attacking Obama for gas prices from Bush's vacation house!  Who the hell let that happen? 

He and his surrogates don't even bother to check his voting record before running their mouth on issues?

The whole campaign is just sloppier than a dime whore on nickel night.  No discipline, no attention to detail, poor branding, poorly crafted message, very little ability to react to whats happening and no focus.

There is some chance McCain is just too old.  I am not trying to be mean here but he seems clueless.  He also seems a bit intractable. 

He can't accept the demise of Czechoslovakia?

He says Iraq is the center of the war on terrorism and not Afghanistan because Iraq's border with Pakistan? 

When asked about his votes on insurance and birth control he sits there totally befuddled for 8 seconds before essentially saying I don't really pay attention to the shit I vote on? 

Not to pick on the guy for being old but I am starting to seriously question if he has the stamina to get to November.  I am wondering when the flubs and mistakes will give way to his more natural response of anger. 

This guy acts like what I picture Woodrow Wilson looking like when he pushed himslef too far trying to get the Treaty of Versailles ratified and had a stroke he never recovered from.  Now I am not wishing or predicting a McCain stroke, but I am extremely dubious he is going to start campaigning singnificantly better and expect it to get worse.

Novak says McCain will anounce his VP soon (like this week or next) to try to draw some attention away from Obama Kicking Ass World Tour. 

Now my first reaction was this was a terrible sign of weakness since this is the biggest card McCain has left to play in order to gin up excitement.  I think he should do it the day after Obama accepts the nomination.  Try to shorten that story. 

But now I think McCain needs rest, lots of rest.  Maybe he needs a veep to do the heavy lifting for him for a bit.

Just imagine the guy you have been seeing interviewed for the last week in a debate.  Long, uncomfortable pauses, blank stares, almost no grasp of the basic facts.  His campaign has a problem and I just don't know if there is a solution.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 01:54:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"If they rejected the editorial, they probably had a pretty damn good reason." 

If a former Republican speechwriter was the editor of the NYT editorial page, and he rejected an Obama submission, you would be howling.

If the entire press followed McCain around the Middle East, while completely ignoring Obama's trip, you would be screaming.

It's OK for you to be a partisan hack, but don't lie to yourself and claim to be anything but an absolute hypocrite. 

by KenTX on 07/22/2008 07:02:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]

If the NYT printed six Obama editorials and then sent one that read like the one McCain sent back for a rewrite and offered to publish it when it met standards I would be ok with that.  Why won't McCain tell us his plan for victory or define victory?  It seems a reasonable request.

If the entire press followed McCain around and reported on his campaign I would be ecstatic.  Then everyone would know what a doddering old, flip-flopping, clueless Bush cum dumpster Grampa Death is.  you think I'm happy McCain gets ignored no matter how bad he fucks up and Obama has everything he does blown up to cosmic size?  Wake up.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 10:35:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
My understanding is that the NYT invited both candidates to write these op-eds. My first reaction was ...the NYT can choose to print anything it likes. I haven't seen the McCain piece that was submitted, but I can imagine it was the usual diatribe about how Obama was "wrong about the surge" etc., and that the NYT was looking for something with new information.
 
But after reflection, if the NYT really did invite both of them to submit opinion, then I think they should accept and print what McCain submitted. If they found it to be merely a diatribe then it should have been up to the editor to say so in the regular editorial column...such as....we asked for information about Senator McCain's position and all we got was accusation, which we consider a waste of our readers' time.

by Verified1 on 07/22/2008 08:56:45 AM EST


Then you make an excellent point.  Maybe someone can clarify?

by ihavenobias on 07/22/2008 09:42:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I have probably read a dozen stories on this and have never even seen it suggested the NYT invited the editorial.  Can you source that?

And the NYT has explained there decision.  You should research this story.  Its not hard.  Its everywhere.

Here is the editorial by the way:

McCain’s New York Times Editorial (Text)
Rejected on July 21st, 2008

In January 2007, when General David Petraeus took command in Iraq, he called the situation “hard” but not “hopeless.” Today, 18 months later, violence has fallen by up to 80% to the lowest levels in four years, and Sunni and Shiite terrorists are reeling from a string of defeats. The situation now is full of hope, but considerable hard work remains to consolidate our fragile gains.

Progress has been due primarily to an increase in the number of troops and a change in their strategy. I was an early advocate of the surge at a time when it had few supporters in Washington. Senator Barack Obama was an equally vocal opponent. “I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there,” he said on January 10, 2007. “In fact, I think it will do the reverse.”

Now Senator Obama has been forced to acknowledge that “our troops have performed brilliantly in lowering the level of violence.” But he still denies that any political progress has resulted.

Perhaps he is unaware that the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad has recently certified that, as one news article put it, “Iraq has met all but three of 18 original benchmarks set by Congress last year to measure security, political and economic progress.” Even more heartening has been progress that’s not measured by the benchmarks. More than 90,000 Iraqis, many of them Sunnis who once fought against the government, have signed up as Sons of Iraq to fight against the terrorists. Nor do they measure Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki’s new-found willingness to crack down on Shiite extremists in Basra and Sadr City—actions that have done much to dispel suspicions of sectarianism.

The success of the surge has not changed Senator Obama’s determination to pull out all of our combat troops. All that has changed is his rationale. In a New York Times op-ed and a speech this week, he offered his “plan for Iraq” in advance of his first “fact finding” trip to that country in more than three years. It consisted of the same old proposal to pull all of our troops out within 16 months. In 2007 he wanted to withdraw because he thought the war was lost. If we had taken his advice, it would have been. Now he wants to withdraw because he thinks Iraqis no longer need our assistance.

To make this point, he mangles the evidence. He makes it sound as if Prime Minister Maliki has endorsed the Obama timetable, when all he has said is that he would like a plan for the eventual withdrawal of U.S. troops at some unspecified point in the future.

Senator Obama is also misleading on the Iraqi military’s readiness. The Iraqi Army will be equipped and trained by the middle of next year, but this does not, as Senator Obama suggests, mean that they will then be ready to secure their country without a good deal of help. The Iraqi Air Force, for one, still lags behind, and no modern army can operate without air cover. The Iraqis are also still learning how to conduct planning, logistics, command and control, communications, and other complicated functions needed to support frontline troops.

No one favors a permanent U.S. presence, as Senator Obama charges. A partial withdrawal has already occurred with the departure of five “surge” brigades, and more withdrawals can take place as the security situation improves. As we draw down in Iraq, we can beef up our presence on other battlefields, such as Afghanistan, without fear of leaving a failed state behind. I have said that I expect to welcome home most of our troops from Iraq by the end of my first term in office, in 2013.

But I have also said that any draw-downs must be based on a realistic assessment of conditions on the ground, not on an artificial timetable crafted for domestic political reasons. This is the crux of my disagreement with Senator Obama.

Senator Obama has said that he would consult our commanders on the ground and Iraqi leaders, but he did no such thing before releasing his “plan for Iraq.” Perhaps that’s because he doesn’t want to hear what they have to say. During the course of eight visits to Iraq, I have heard many times from our troops what Major General Jeffrey Hammond, commander of coalition forces in Baghdad, recently said: that leaving based on a timetable would be “very dangerous.”

The danger is that extremists supported by Al Qaeda and Iran could stage a comeback, as they have in the past when we’ve had too few troops in Iraq. Senator Obama seems to have learned nothing from recent history. I find it ironic that he is emulating the worst mistake of the Bush administration by waving the “Mission Accomplished” banner prematurely.

by ProfRich on 07/22/2008 10:43:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I haven't seen this claim anywhere else either, but even if it is so, it doesn't matter. A publisher or Editor can "invite" submissions, but that doesn't obligate them to run a damn thing.

 

by MedfordTim on 07/22/2008 04:31:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"You should research this story.  Its not hard."
 
Which is why I was asking, not insisting, Rich.

by Verified1 on 07/26/2008 05:08:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Kind of meant what I said, I suppose.

I apologize.

by ProfRich on 07/27/2008 12:01:39 AM EST

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