Major Solar Energy Project in Arizona Needs Candidates' Votes

Email Print posted by desertpear 07/30/2008 04:13:27 PM EST

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A massive solar energy project planned for Arizona may end up being implemented overseas because McCain and Obama's votes are needed and campaigning is keeping them from their senate voting duties.  There is more...

The company Abengoa Solar has proposed to build the largest solar power plant in the world ("Solana") in Arizona, but the absence of McCain and Obama in the senate this week due to campaigning may kill the project.  This project will only happen if Congress renews the clean energy tax credit that is set to expire at the end of 2008.  A vote may be held this week to extend the tax credits.  In June, a vote fell seven votes short--Obama, McCain, Clinton, and Kennedy were absent.  Kennedy isn't expected back in the Senate until September, while Clinton should be on hand to vote.  If McCain were to vote, it is likely he could bring a few Republican votes with him. However, he would have to choose between a tax increase in his home state and the project, and the business community would likely lobby against it.

"... beyond the benefits of green, renewable energy, the billion-dollar investment in Solana would create 1,500 construction jobs and 85 permanent, highly skilled positions. The project would be built and owned by Abengoa Solar. The Arizona utility would purchase energy from the Spanish engineering firm; Abengoa estimates that the nearly 2,000-acre plant could sell $4 billion worth of energy over 30 years." 

The plant would power up to 70,000 homes and would be the first example of a major utility getting the majority of its energy from solar power.

The senior adviser to the company's US branch noted that "Without the tax credit, 'not only won’t this plant happen, but a plant that will put carbon emissions into the atmosphere for 30 or 40 years will have to be built instead of this.'"

The article is here.

More information on the project is here and here.

I don't have an answer aside from begging the candidates to vote on this.  This is a non-partisan appeal to do the right thing.

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 Display:
Major Solar Energy Project in Arizona Needs Candidates' Votes | 45 comments (45 topical, 0 hidden)
Solar in the Southwest (none / 0)
is the ULTIMATE no-brainer.

It's pathetic that there wasn't a huge solar project down there 20-30 years ago. It's truly inexcusable.

Then again the Reagans and Norquists of the world created a population of people who loathe and despise taxes, so I'm guessing well intentioned Dems proposed solar projects that got shot down by Repubs saying it would cost too much.

As usual the greedy, short-sighted bastards screwed everyone in the long run.

by ihavenobias on 07/30/2008 04:53:29 PM EST

The US Southwest (none / 0)
Is apparently somewhat unique in being both a great place to collect solar power as well as next to major population centers (e.g., Phoenix).

by desertpear on 07/30/2008 05:14:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
well (none / 0)
never mind the fact that they have no Mass transportation or water despite that.. well facts like that have never stopped up before...

by Bungle on 07/30/2008 05:35:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
water (none / 0)
I think water is poised to become a major player in slowing development in some of these areas.  It's a finite resource locally speaking, even here in the Pacific Northwest. 

by desertpear on 07/30/2008 05:42:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
water, water, everywhere (none / 0)
All we have to do is lay pipeline from the Great Lakes, which holds 25% of the world's fresh water to the southwest. All of the people are moving from that region to the southwest, like ihavenobias, for example.

by KenTX on 07/31/2008 07:53:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
rrriiiiggghhht (none / 0)
That's such a great idea Ken!  Not.  I'm guessing you aren't a hydrogeologist or you might understand some of the implications of such an abstraction effort.

by desertpear on 08/01/2008 04:51:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Are you implying that the elements don't (none / 0)

obey our every command?

Do you hate America or Jesus?

Palin in 2012? Bitch, please! No, really, please run in 2012, bitch. ;)

by richardshort2001 on 08/02/2008 01:19:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]
They've got to do this (none / 0)
In this day, at this time, in our situation, if they can't make this happen they aren't worth a damn.  They need to push hard on every new idea and innovative project they can get their hands on.  It's already almost too late.

by bfaul on 07/30/2008 05:15:26 PM EST

Amen (none / 0)
They also need to push and push hard for more buses and light rail.

And of course better, more dense planning...so much irresponsible sprawl down there.

by ihavenobias on 07/30/2008 05:21:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I live here and Ive never heard of this... (none / 0)
That's how much support this has out here!!! Zip-Zero-Nada... I do think they should have solar out here, but not if they have to raise my taxes for it - and why do we have to do business with a Spanish company when I'm sure there are American companies that can provide the same service? Why should we export more of our dollars to foreigners?

by bobo1 on 07/30/2008 05:41:16 PM EST

Wow (none / 0)
You realize you are a living, breathing example of an incredibly short-sighted, tax averse citizen, right?

Tomorrow you'll bitch about gas prices killing you and the next day you'll bitch about taxes going toward more solar and mass transit.

And you'll think those issues are totally unrelated.

by ihavenobias on 07/30/2008 05:43:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
When the market can bear the the costs... (none / 0)
Then solar will come to the desert - why the Hell should I have to pay more in consumption taxes so some more foreign companies take money out of our economy? Solar is still way too expensive per capita to be cost efficient - The oil companies will never allow it to drop to reasonable price levels, bias, you know that!!! As for mass transit - you obviously live in a city like Chicago where raillines were established 200 years ago and people live in shoeboxes right next to each other - doesn't work en masse out west where things are bigger and much further apart - I don't need to go downtown because I got no business in the ghetto so why the Hell do I need a train to take me there (at my tax expense no less!) Go ahead and build your trains back east - you can probably use them! Leave us to our sprawl and sunshine (and leave our already outrageous tax bill alone!!!) :)

by bobo1 on 07/30/2008 05:52:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
pathetic (none / 0)

People like you are the reason we have to kill hundreds of thousands of people to keep our military and "friendly" governments right next to the oil. And whats almost worse is that you assholes act like its a joke.

You sicken me.

Don't talk about religion or politics, my ass!

by TheRob91 on 07/30/2008 09:31:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Why? (none / 0)
Because I told the truth? Why isn't anyone talking about nationalizing our energy resources? Why isn't anyone here talking about going down to Enron-Type businesses and dragging the CEOs through the streets? Why haven't the people started rioting in the streets if the Earth is gonna die from "global warming"? Why is it that the solution for this "crisis" is to ram me my neighbors and everyone else up the ass in higher taxes? Why? Come on, answer me? Thinking the Democrats are gonna change any of this is the real joke here, sir!!!

by bobo1 on 07/31/2008 01:20:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm noticing (none / 0)
a possibly unhealthy fixation you seem to have with things being rammed up your ass or shoved down your throat.

by Spencer on 07/31/2008 01:45:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Its a result... (none / 0)
Of all this fucking "gay" culture you guys shove down American's throats (along with that damn black culture!) If I'm not careful, I'm gonna have to change my name to RuPaul! (Sidenote here - I actually had the opportunity to meet RuPaul through some mutual friends - what a wonderful human being he is, really...) :)

by bobo1 on 07/31/2008 01:52:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
bobo (none / 0)
Really, what lifestyle are you leading where gays and minorities are shoving their culture down your throat, because even living in the Gay Area I never experienced this.  OK, maybe when I went to a John Waters Christmas Drag Queen Contest or something in the city, but still I enjoyed myself, and I usually do in the company of other open-minded folks even if I am just a straight white woman.  Was it the police training?  I consider myself pessimistic and cynical, but you really have me beat.  I think I have half of the answer though.  You need to get laid. ;)

by desertpear on 07/31/2008 02:04:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Isn't it obvious? (none / 0)

He's hanging out with RuPaul.  It's all of his fetishes in one person.  If we could only find a way to convince RuPaul to become a legal citizen of Mexico and then illegally migrate to America, hmm...  Don't worry guys.  I'm on it.

by Spencer on 07/31/2008 02:10:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You're probably right... (none / 0)
It always takes a woman's intuitions (or other various parts) to put things back into perspective for me - thanks! As for the Gay thing - I grew up in SoCal around more queers than you can shake a dick at... I get along with them fine, personally - I just don't like the "militants" who think their lifestyle should be promoted and crammed down our orrifices - I have attended and participated in "Gay" weddings and fully support their right to do so - I just don't think they need to have "special" above and beyond rights like other "hardship" groups... Its OK to be Gay, but don't fucking get mad when I say I don't want it in my politics or plastered on my TV!

by bobo1 on 07/31/2008 02:11:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
ah, I see (none / 0)
But don't you like Project Runway?  As far as in our politics, I think they just want to have the same rights as het couples and I have no problem with that.  You know it will happen someday, just like interracial marriage.  So let's get it over with (it should be legal in at least some states).  Only individual gay people have annoyed me, but it usually had nothing to do with their gaity.  Maybe you are just really attractive to gay men?  are you a nice dresser?

by desertpear on 07/31/2008 03:05:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I am an exceptional dresser... (none / 0)
I never thought about that Pear... Maybe that's it!!! :)

by bobo1 on 07/31/2008 07:44:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
which "special" rights (none / 0)
that other human beings possess have gays asked for? I somehow missed them in all the hullabaloo over gay marriage.

by hazmat on 07/31/2008 06:21:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
allow me to rephrase (none / 0)
which special rights that other human beings do not possess have gays asked for ;) ?

by hazmat on 07/31/2008 06:23:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Things like... (none / 0)
Hate crimes status, preferential employment/scholarship application (affirmative action), special parade days and tax status deferment (Church of the Homo-Fabulous-Goddess etc)... If I get beat up in an alley by a bunch of homosexuals or blacks they don't call it a hate crime - why should it be called that in reverse? If I don't get a parade (and all that other stuff - neither should they!!!) :)

by bobo1 on 07/31/2008 07:52:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
special parade days? (none / 0)

?? you're pissed about gay pride?? really? Awe dude. Bobo, that's not a government sponsored event. What's it to you if they get a parade, anyways? Besides, they do have a parade for white people, here's a commemorative photo from a recent one:

 

Dude chill out I'm just joking. I don't think you're really racist or homophobic. I know you went to a gay wedding recently so obviously you're not a bigot, right? Let me continue.

If gays want affirmative action that's news to me. I do know they want to enact anti-descrimination laws, but that strikes me as reasonable (isn't it?). If you fear persecution because you are white, or straight or whatever, why don't you fight to update hate-crimes legislation to include any crimes that are hate motivated (clue: its difficult to prove in court)--oh wait, that's what gays are asking for. Hate crimes are heinous. Look I know the conservative argument against any special classification for a crime--a murder is a murder--butI just don't buy it. A drugstore murder and a lynching are two very different things, and you're not going to convince me otherwise.

None of these constitute "special" privileges. They fall squarely in the category of the pursuit of happiness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but reading your post in its entirety you sound like you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

Take my unsolicited advice. See some legislation you don't like, such as affirmative action for gays?...don't vote for it. Tell us why you don't like it specifically. But stop talking about people "ramming a gay agenda down your throat", because A that's not true (there's no gay borg collective you nutball) and B you come off extremely homophobic, which I know you aren't.

by hazmat on 07/31/2008 11:40:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
money (none / 0)

is etremely important, I know, but at one point(and sadly still) the oil industries got the same advantage. I guess its ok to CONTINUE to give the oil companies taxpayers money but there is no need to explore new energy that will actually help taxpayers in the long run.

I also think that by having this set up as an example would give data and experience in the field, leading to new advances that could make it cheap enough to be done without government help at some point. Helping a company and an industry economically that would help the country in other ways in my mind is one of the reasons you have government in the first place.

Its true that the democrats do try to do this too often, but you need to look at each situation individually. The nation is completely and utterly dependent on oil. Even if oil companies were given the ability to drill anywhere in America they wanted they still wouldn't be able to satiate the demand if something happened in Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc from a man made attack or problem or just a natural disaster.

You've also brought up some points that I didn't really mention or care about with regards to this issue. Global warming, whether existent or not, does not change the fact that we are running out of oil as a planet.

The Enronish CEOs aren't really to blame in my opinion. If I read correctly I believe there is a shortage in both manpower and equipment because of the current surge in profitability leading to any spare resources being used in the oil industry. And, of course, The CEOs of the companies that make the new energy would be just as money hungry as the oil CEOs now, thats just what CEOs do, its their job.

Also, the democrats do support more money going to researching new energy methods, which is exactly what I'm arguing for. Not out of the goodness of their heart(because they are politicians) but because its part of the party platform.

Although, I will admit that more important than this is simply research into the field that could more quickly lead to an economically viable way of doing it without having someone step in to hand them some extra cash.

I did go over the top in the last comment though, sorry about that. Just read the Lavena Johnson story then. 

Don't talk about religion or politics, my ass!

by TheRob91 on 07/31/2008 08:10:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
light rail + solar (none / 0)
first of all I really need light rail after janett and shriff Joe started cracking down on DUI laws!  It costs me $40 for a cab downtown to the bars!  with light rail it will cost me like $2 to get home if I decide to get hammered at the D-bags game.  Also we need the power in Pho.  New nuclear plants are frankly more expensive than solar thermal (much different and cheaper than traditional PV for utilities).  With the cost of nat gas, those arnt' much cheaper these days.  The only other option is coal, which when most of the "clean" technologies are added in isn't too cheap either and is difficult to get funding with uncertainty over future carbon regulations.  When it comes down to it we're going to have to find a way to get these types of things funded if we want power in the SW over the long term.  Then again it may be better for all involved if people stop moving to massive sprawl in the middle of the fucking desert! (like I can talk of course) 

by alphasigmookie on 08/01/2008 01:54:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Light Rail as your DD (none / 0)
Mookie - I hardly think the taxpayers should be responsible for billions of dollars in light rail for you and the rest of the D-bags fans "Drunk Express" lines. And besides that, the good bars are in Scottsdale and Tempe, not downtown! As for the power plants - You're right... ;)

by bobo1 on 08/01/2008 09:37:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
next line (none / 0)
That's why the need to start building the next line down scottsdale road! I can already walk to the tempe bars, but I need a change of pace every now and then. After spending this week in ny and boston I'm already spoiled on public transit! Plus with the new photo radar laws not to mention gas prices I probably won't be able to afford to drive much longer...

by alphasigmookie on 08/01/2008 04:04:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thats for damn sure!!! (none / 0)
Mass transit like back east won't work out here and you know it - San Diego and LA both have trolley/subways - no one uses them because only Hippies and Homeless people rtide them regularly...

by bobo1 on 08/01/2008 07:07:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
out in the wild west (none / 0)

We have Greyhound, where you might be lucky enough to get beheaded while taking a little nap! 

by desertpear on 08/02/2008 12:44:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Wasnt That AWFUL!!!! (none / 0)
I almost shit when I saw that!!! I didn't think Canadians had it in them - non violent neighbors my ass!!!! :)

by bobo1 on 08/02/2008 01:12:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
bizarre (none / 0)
I haven't ridden in a Greyhound for a million years, but I do remember meeting a guy who said he was Jesus on a ride from Portland to Oakland.  I don't think he really was Jesus.

by desertpear on 08/02/2008 03:11:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
maybe (none / 0)

Maybe the reason for lack of support is because it has been ignored in the media.  At some point we have to make sacrifices in the short term to promote long-term energy independence.  Yes, some of the profits may end up overseas, but I personally believe the trade offs in this case are well worth it.  Maybe your energy costs would be reduced in the longer term for not being dependent on petroleum.  Bobo, you do understand that climate change may challenge our economy in ways that we can't even begin to predict, don't you?  Whether or not it has been anthropogenically caused.  Look at where your taxes are going now--I can't imagine this would affect you personally to any significant degree, but it would be for a great project. 

Maybe reading the articles I linked can answer some of the other questions you have.  If you are honestly interested that is, and not just giving a knee-jerk negative reaction.

by desertpear on 07/30/2008 05:50:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thank you Desertpear... (none / 0)
I will examine those articles when I get to my regular computer... I believe that every building and dwelling ought to have solar panels here in Phoenix - but I know its never going to happen due simply to the cost. Panels are still inefficient and expensive as Hell, and that's how the power companies like it... Until oil really gets out of hand (1000 dollars a barrel) then this unfortunately is the way its going to stay! As for my power, I live 15 miles from the largest nuclear power facility in the country - Palo Verde - and it is the cleanest power station in the state - albeit the largest water consumer in the area. People here are real reluctant to give money to foreign companies to provide them with "green" power when we already have it... Something needs to happen to make things more environmentally sound I agree - but why do "green" solutions always have to cost me more of my quickly devaluing dollars?

by bobo1 on 07/30/2008 06:04:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
clean and green (none / 0)

Thanks for your comments.  I actually don't think solar would be as expensive to implement on an individual basis as you think; after all, a lot of people live off the grid using solar in the southwest and I'm not talking rich people.  I'm talking people in strawbale and cob houses and yurts.  When your sunshine is so dependable as in the SW, you can even do a lot with passive solar techniques (i.e., no electronics necessary).  Heating water with passive solar is an absolute no-brainer where you live.

I'm not completely anti-nuclear, but I am one of those nuts that will insist on safety and a plan for the waste.  I live in a state where there was horrible contamination from a nuclear facility--Hanford.   

"By 1957, the eight plutonium production reactors at Hanford dumped a daily average of 50,000 curies of radioactive material into the Columbia. These releases were kept secret by the federal government.<sup> </sup>Radiation was later measured downstream as far west as the Washington and Oregon coasts.

Downwinders were exposed to radionuclides, particularly iodine-131, with the heaviest releases during the period from 1945 to 1951. These radionuclides filtered into the food chain via contaminated fields where dairy cows grazed... "

Nuclear is not all happy happy joy joy. And like you say, the amounts of cooling water needed are ginormous and the effects of withdrawing water from rivers and/or increasing instream temperatures are complicated and mostly negative.   

You might be surprised to find that foreign companies are already buying up lots of smaller and larger utilities in the west.  In fact, a foreign company (forget the country) is looking to buy my local power company Puget Sound Energy right now.  PacifiCorp, a venerable northwest company, was bought by Scottish Power several years ago.

You worry about taxes, but you have to realize that you personally will benefit from alternative energy efforts, whether or not they are as immediate or tangible as a wad of dollar bills.  Things like clean water and air are still required by humans.  We don't want toxic substances leaking all over the place (like in the Puget Sound where carcinogenic fire retardants are pervasive).  I would love my taxes going to a massive alternative energy project.  I can think of numerous benefits.

You'll have to talk to others about your devaluing dollars.  Like McCain, I'm not an expert on the economy.

by desertpear on 07/31/2008 02:43:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't get it (none / 0)
Raise your taxes?  Export tax dollars?  Who the hell said anything about that?  Tax credits for alternative energy make sense.  How the hell can you be against that?

by bfaul on 07/30/2008 06:06:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Let's say he's right (none / 0)
It's not like HIS tax burden would explode (based on his previous comments on his small income).

With that in mind, so what? That'd be like me bitching that my state taxes were going to increase a little to expand train or bus service my way when in fact I'd SAVE money not driving to work every day.

And by the way Bobo, wanting to be "left alone" in "sun and sprawl" is stupid because it's unsustainable. You NEED more planners to develop more densely populated communities to make public transportation and more efficient energy usage for homes.

by ihavenobias on 07/30/2008 06:20:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Simple Economics bfaul... (none / 0)
When the government gives a tax "credit"or "break" to a company or industry, they will always look to recover that lost revenue (from the taxes they aren't getting that they normally would without the "break"). Guess who ends up paying for that lost revenue - I do, through higher sales, transportation and god knows whatever taxes they decide to raise "for our benefit" When this company gets a tax break, they operate and can raise their prices to me (the consumer) and not have to worry about the punitive taxes that they should be paying... So again, who gets screwed? I do... Tax breaks can be a great thing to get businesses in your area - but don't be fooled as to who ends up paying for it in the end - you and I...

by bobo1 on 07/30/2008 06:23:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The inertia of (5.00 / 2)

Dig a little deeper, and you'll realize that any tax breaks the Republicans "gave" you are gone with the weakening dollar, increasing fuel costs and the rising inflation it brings.  What's more, they "gave" you nothing, they borrowed on credit and pretended you didn't have to worry about paying it back.  They're still doing that.  Now you owe more than you ever have, with interest.  Failure to pay means the cost of borrowing will go through the roof, which means the collapse of our economy.  If this happens you're going to be sitting around wishing like hell you were back in the good old days before they reduced taxes and thinking up ways to blame it on someone else.

If the government is going to give tax breaks to anybody for anything it should be for ventures like this that move us away from our dependency.  Projects like this could make Arizona and the other western states real players in the energy market of the future.  Go ahead and pass it up.  They'll locate in New Mexico or Nevada or Utah or California and you can take the "savings" from your lower taxes and buy a case of beer.  Do it quick though because your rising electrical bills will rapidly eat up that extra money.

What has happened to so many Americans?  They sit around and find ways to put off doing what has to be done.  It's too hard!  It's too expensive!  I don't want to sacrifice!  I don't want to take risks!  I don't want to change!  Is waving the flag and screaming "we're number 1!" the only thing we do well anymore?  Is it any wonder that foreign companies are coming in and doing the groundbreaking things we used to be notable for doing?  And when the foreign companies come in to do the things we are unwilling to we gripe that it "ought to be Americans" that are making the money from it.

by bfaul on 07/31/2008 10:50:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
agree 100% (none / 0)
Excellent points.  We have to start somewhere!! 

by desertpear on 07/31/2008 02:17:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Pear is right (none / 0)
Your post is excellent.  Very well said.

by ihavenobias on 07/31/2008 02:28:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This would be awesome! (none / 0)
And I'm brushing bobo's whining off my shoulder as we speak.

by Spencer on 07/30/2008 06:04:26 PM EST

I suppose (none / 0)
Cleaning toilets at McDonald you don't pay taxes like normal working citizens so you don't understand about tax burdens and what not, but believe me when I tell you I don't even want you to have to pay more... It just isn't right! :)

by bobo1 on 07/30/2008 06:10:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Why do you hate America? (none / 0)
Someone needs to clean the toilets, right?  Good thing I have Jay-Z here to help me (sorry for ramming that black culture down your throat).  Why do you always have to come and stomp on anything positive?  Don't you have drinking and blaming minorities for your problems to do?  Vamoose...

by Spencer on 07/30/2008 06:26:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Major Solar Energy Project in Arizona Needs Candidates' Votes | 45 comments (45 topical, 0 hidden)
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