Obama on FISA, not on Crack

Email Print posted by newseven 07/05/2008 02:40:58 PM EST

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I know a lot of people are disappointed with Sen. Obama and his decision to support the new version of the FISA bill.  But, even though I can relate to everyone's frustration, I have a theory as to why Obama and so many other Democrats have supported the bill.

Aside from the reasons that Sen. Obama outlined in his official response on the issue of FISA and telecom immunity etc.,  I honestly believe that what the Dems and Obama fear the most is another terrorist attack between now and the November election.  Politically speaking, supporting the FISA bill is a C.Y.A move all the way. 

God forbid there is another terrorist attack, you know it, I know it, we all know it - the Republicans will scream from the top of their lungs that Obama and the Dems stood in the way of important legislation to keep Americans safe.  No matter how far from the truth such a statement would be, politically it is something the Republicans will make stick. 

The chances of another terrorist attack may or may not be small, but, it is a risk that Obama and the Democrats cannot afford to take. Obama cannot afford to be on the side of the fence saying "I know hundreds/thousands of people are dead, but... Bush and the telecoms were breaking the law".  Trust me.  No one will want to hear a nuanced argument about the 4th Amendment at that time.  And because of that, Obama and the Dems cannot afford to be caught on that side of the fence, no matter how principled of a stand it may be to not support the current bill.

The key issue that Obama has zeroed in on is whether or not the FISA court has oversight and review of the so-called wiretapping program.  To the extent that the FISA court is codified/re-codified into law to encompass current methods of surviellance, then I for one am willing to give Obama and the other Dems the benefit of the doubt.
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Obama on FISA, not on Crack | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 hidden)
I said the same thing (none / 0)

in my post right below yours.  I'm not really buying it though.  If there was another attack, it really won't make much difference either way.  People KNEW, KNEW FOR A FACT, that Bush had gotten the "Bin Laden determined to attack" memo months before the attack and did nothing about it.  They knew this well before the 2004 election and re-elected him anyway because they perceived him as "strong on defence" because he talked tough.

McCain will always hold that advantage over Obama whether Obama votes yea or nay on telecom immunity.  Either way he could say that the gov't could have gotten the info easily through the FISA court.

As I said, Obama might have taken one stick (of many) from the Republicans, but he gave them another one of "flip flopper" which happens to be true and thus harder for Obama to dispute.

If we are again attacked and it's bad, McCain will still hold the advantage emotionally because he is perceived as having "experience".&nbs p; McCain will make people FEEL safer because he talks tough.  It won't matter even if it can be proved that Bush admin had forknowledge or intelligence beforehand or not.  Scared people are stupid people.  Obama will be screwed.  I think he gains little or nothing by letting crooks off the hook.  And I respect him less for being scared to uphold his principles.

by blueheartinaredstate on 07/05/2008 04:03:07 PM EST

Obama is taking away any GOP ammo on this issue (none / 0)
There hasnt been anyone, anywhere who has been able to rationally explain how making it harder for the government to gain cooperation from telecoms makes us safer.

Making the telecoms financially immune and the FISA court stonger, while being able to still criminally go after wrongdoing by the administration--is something I can live with.

The fault lies with the administration's attack on FISA and the 4th Amendment, not the telecoms. 

Even if they couldnt be sued by civilians, they can still be fined by the government (albeit thats1 highly unlikely) for wrongdoing.

by calturner on 07/05/2008 09:03:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes but... (none / 0)

by newseven on 07/06/2008 12:09:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes, but... (none / 0)
what about the rest of the democrats?  You may be right.  The advantage certainly goes to McCain if there is another major terrorist attack.  But, at least at that point, Obama would have a solid argument to make that staying in Iraq has made us less safe.  Again, I go back to my point that no one, NO ONE is going to want to hear an argument about how the Administration and the telecoms were breaking the law when there are dead Americans in the streets.  If that happens, Obama won't be the only one that's screwed.  Democrats will be screwed for a generation if that happens.

Both you and Obama are arguing principle.  The question is where do you draw the line.  It appears that Obama has drawn the line at bringing the FISA court back into the process, which ultimately protects against abuses of the 4th Amendment.  Others have drawn the line at going after the telecoms in an effort to get Bush (let's get real).    Sorry... ain't gonna' happen.

As comprimises go,  Obama's position on this issue is an acceptable comprimise.  Not desirable, but acceptable.

by newseven on 07/06/2008 12:15:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
But it would happen anyway (none / 0)

IF...there is another attack, Obama is on record about wanting to negotiate with our enemies.  It's the right thing to do but if people are lying dead in the streets, people are not going to want to listen to how we should negotiate.  They aren't going to want to listen to anything except vengence.  That's all they wanted to listen to after 9/11.  By all these arguments, Obama would have to hold every stupid violent-ass position that the Repubs do to inoculate himself.

And this law doesn't bring FISA back into the process anymore than it already was.  All this has done is let folks know it's FINE to break the law because there will be no consequences.  This is not "principle", it's common sense.  This version makes it LESS likely that an unscrupulous president would break the law, not more.

It's why we have punishment in this country.  It helps to DETER CRIME.  Without punishment, criminals run amok.  We see it in the way Wall street and hedge fund managers and sub-prime mortgage snake oil salesmen were able to cheat so many people out of their money.  There was no punishment.  There were no consequences. 

THIS is what Obama is supporting in order to look "strong on defence". 

I don't see this as the end of the world, because rich criminals have been getting away with this kind of thing forever.  But it's wrong and it nearly guarantees that more laws will be broken because the risk of paying the price will be seen as low. 

by blueheartinaredstate on 07/06/2008 11:30:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We have to agree... (none / 0)
to disagree.   We all know that FISA was already "supposed" to be a part of the process.  But, we also know that FISA was not being used.  The current bill makes it clear that the new form of surveillance (which we do not know the details because it is classified) still requires a FISA court review.  This is one of those areas where we think we know, but we really don't know because we don't know the details of the classified program.  And for whatever the reasons, the Bush administration thought that the new program created room for a loophole to bypass the FISA court.  Well, apparently, the new bill closes that loophole (whether real or perceived) and that is important if you care about the 4th Amendment. 

Call it a do-over, re-do, whatever... but according to Sen. Obama and many other Dems, the new bill makes it clear that the new surveillance program requires FISA court review.

I got it, you and many others want to punish those who bypassed FISA in the first place. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, I got it.  But, going forward, I do not agree that the new bill makes it more likely that future Presidents will break the law.  The new bill makes it clear that surveillance, including the new methods that people like you and I do not have all the details, does in fact require FISA.  That is extremely important for the current president and any future presidents.

I don't think Obama is playing into anyone's hands on this issue.  He reviewed the issue and made a decision and told you why he made the decision.  Yes people will be out for blood and vengeance if there are dead people in the streets.  But, a lot of people on the left are out for blood against the telecoms and they don't even have all the facts.   We all know why Bush wanted telecom immunity (read: self-immunization).  But, restoring FISA to the current program was important enough to Obama to compromise, and I understand that decision - especially given everything I've said previously.

by newseven on 07/07/2008 07:53:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
let's be fair (none / 0)
It's true that Obama loves telec om immunity and warrantless wiretaps, but I don't think he still smokes crack.
crackhead

by KenTX on 07/05/2008 10:09:17 PM EST

OMG! (none / 1)
That is like an awesome, awesome picture. I never knew he was so COOOOOL OMG OMG!!!!!!!

by ashbul on 07/05/2008 10:42:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He looks good in this photo (none / 0)
Thanks Ken.  Obama is one sexy dude.

by desertpear on 07/06/2008 04:03:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
wow (none / 0)

obama smokes cigarettes--and there's a picture of him smoking one! Holy shit! Never heard that before. That changes everything. Thanks for focusing on what matters Ken. Because cigarettes--and guns of course--are evil. Thanks dude. I'm voting McCain now. Oh wait, I found a picture of John McCain smoking a cigarette:

 

"If you're not worried, you're not paying attention." --Cenk Uygur

by hazmat on 07/06/2008 02:19:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
he USED to smoke cigarettes (none / 0)
Had to quit before running for president because god knows we can't have a <gasp> smoker for president!!

by desertpear on 07/06/2008 04:02:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree with desertpear (none / 0)
"god knows we can't have a <gasp> smoker for president!!"

You're absolutely correct! Please make sure this information gets wide distribution.

That photo wasn't recent. It was taken after Obama was released from being booked on drug charges.

He has a highly addicitive personality, and he can't help it. We should feel sorry for him.

by KenTX on 07/06/2008 04:13:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
and McCain (none / 0)
Has a gambling addiction. 

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 05:21:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
oh yeesh (none / 0)

Really, who gives a frak if Obama is trying to quit smoking and hasn't quite got there yet?  I bet it only makes Americans identify with him more.  Makes him less "elitest."

If this is the best you got....you should have chosen someone other than McCain as your candidate, unfortunately.  Because it seems that all you have to attack Obama with are lies and smears, whereas we have plenty of material from McCain's own mouth on video to share.  We don't need to stoop to Republican tactics.  

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 05:30:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama, in his own words. (none / 0)
You challenged me to provide evidence that Obama admitted in his own writing that he was a drug addicted junkie.

I dutifully replied with irrefutable evidence, as you requested.

But I never even received a thank you. This hurts my feelings.

You can make it up to me by acknowledging that Barack Obama was a self-admitted, self-described "junkie".

by KenTX on 07/07/2008 06:34:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
wrong (none / 0)

I'm so sorry Ken, I can't acknowledge that.  Your quote from his book only says that's where he'd been headed.  It sounds like he smoked some pot--horrors!  Americans voted in a confirmed coke-snorting alcoholic--Bush Jr.  Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. 

"Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man,"

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 07:20:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"once a crackhead, always a crackhead" (none / 0)
I don't remember George Bush ever admitting to snorting coke? I know that Democrats have made this accusation, and inferred that he was unqualified to be President as a result. But I never saw the proof.

But here we have, in his own words, a self-incriminating admission from a former drug abuser, and possible drug dealer:
"I got high for just the opposite effect, something that could push questions of who I was out of my mind, something that could flatten out the landscape of my heart, blur the edges of my memory."

"We were always playing on the white man's court . . . by the white man's rules . . . . If the principal, or the coach, or a teacher . . . wanted to spit in your face, he could, because he had the power and you didn't. . . . The only thing you could choose was withdrawal into a smaller and smaller coil of rage. And the final irony: should you refuse this defeat and lash out at your captors . . . they would have a name for that too. Paranoid. Militant. . . . Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it."

I can't wait for the October Surprise!

by KenTX on 07/07/2008 07:47:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Again (none / 0)

So he smoked some pot.  Do you know what crack is?  Crack is not mentioned here.

And actually, it was a FOX NEWS reporter:

"As political media buzzed about whether or not Senator Barack Obama's admission eleven years ago that he used cocaine as a teenager would hurt his political prospects, Fox News ran a segment on "Obama's Cocaine Confession." Their conversation took an unusual turn, however, when Fox reporter Kirian Chetry said President Bush had also admitted to using cocaine.

Obama "talks very candidly, as did our current president, who admitted to using cocaine, correct? [Others demur] Well, who wrote, somebody wrote in a book -- well, he admitted that he had an alcoholic, he had a drinking problem. Who was it who said they witnessed him using cocaine? It was somebody who wrote a book..."

As her colleagues tried to talk her down from the line of discussion, Chetry responded, "Okay, okay, fine, but there were questions about the current president and whether he used cocaine or not as a young guy, but there's something about turning your life around...that people can accept."

 Bush has simply avoided being honest for his entire career, thanks to daddy Bush paving the way for his presidency.  How we long for his daddy.

"On one part of this story, Bush's record is perfectly clear: in every political campaign he has ever waged, he has skillfully evaded "the cocaine question," probably in much the same way that he avoided appearing for his drug test while serving in the National Guard. We've seen this character defect of his more recently: namely, all the lies and evasions and slipperiness that have contributed to, and culminated in the calamity that is the Iraq War. But Bush's character defect was there all along to see for anyone who wanted to take a good look at it. The U.S. press corps evidently decided, however, simply to look the other way. "

 

This is so not an issue Ken.  It came up long before Obama ran for the nomination.  I'm happy he is honest about it.  A lot of people do this when they are in college.  Nobody cares.  

"George W. Bush refused to share specifics of his own drug experience beyond a general acknowledgment of a rowdy youth ("when I was young and stupid, I was young and stupid"). Still, he did little to contradict ubiquitous reports of his consumption of booze, marijuana and even cocaine.

If the American people managed to elect (twice) a stonewalling, wealthy frat boy from a spectacularly privileged family despite his reported involvement with illegal substances, they will readily forgive (and even embrace) a mixed-race kid from a troubled background whose father abandoned him in his infancy and who wrote candidly, long before his presidential campaign, of his regrettable participation in the drug culture."

 

 

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 09:19:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thank you for keeping the debate going. (none / 0)
Obama has admitted to abusing cocaine and other drugs.

Bill Clinton and Al Gore admitted to smoking dope.

We don't have a similar admission of cocaine use from Bush.

You might be able to find something on Bush smoking dope, I mean, who didn't smoke dope? (Except for McCain, who was "tied up at the time".)

But Bush isn't running for president this year. Did you know that?

It's the War Hero (McCain) versus the Coke Head (Obama).

by KenTX on 07/07/2008 09:36:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
huh? (none / 0)

So he admitted to using marijuana and cocaine?  This was in the news two years ago and nobody cared then.  Nobody cares now.  Seen it on the news lately? 

Of coooourrrsee Bush didn't admit anything!  Has he ever been honest about anything?   That was the point of my last post. 

Go ahead and support your war hero.  

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 09:41:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thank you! (none / 0)
"So (Barack Obama) admitted to using marijuana and cocaine?"

by KenTX on 07/07/2008 09:48:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
yes, I asked the question (none / 0)

Are you going to send my quote to Fox News as some sort of evidence? 

As far as I can tell, Barack did not outright say he used cocaine, but so what if he did?  Apparently many voters admire politicians who can be honest about their past. 

Old news and still no evidence of crack use.  People have had a few years to dig up dirt on Obama.  Not much is coming up, is it? 

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 10:02:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm happy to talk about this subject (none / 0)
for as loooonnnnngggg as you want to keep it going!

"Barack did not outright say he used cocaine."

Sure he did. Leading Democrats agree that Barack Obama abused marijuana, cocaine, and maybe even crack and airplane glue as a young man.

by KenTX on 07/08/2008 04:25:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Roots of Addiction (none / 0)
It occurs to me Ken that Cindy McCain's the only spouse we know of since Betty Ford who had an addiction problem. And of course Pat Nixon was known to hit the sauce, as well. I guess if I had to wake up next to a Republican male, I'd have a whole drug store at my fingertips, too.

by Verified1 on 07/08/2008 04:13:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama for a higher America. (none / 0)
The Man. In his own words.

Here's a polite suggestion. Keep talking about this issue. It's a real winner for you.

by KenTX on 07/08/2008 05:09:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Obama teaches children. (none / 0)
"I'm Barack Obama, and I approve of this message."

"Don't be a crackhead, like me."

Just let me know if you gals want to keep this thing going? I kinda like talkin about it.

by KenTX on 07/08/2008 05:13:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]
KenTX (none / 0)

 

SUCK MY DICK!

ha ha

by BENS MISSING GOATEE on 07/09/2008 09:26:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Stat (none / 0)

Alleged cocaine users are 4-0 in presidential elections!

Nice issue Ken!

by ProfRich on 07/08/2008 10:55:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Ken., stop lying (none / 0)

You said he smoked crack and admitted it.

That was the lie we called you on.  It was interesting to watch you dance away from that lie to the acknowledged pot/coke admission, claim you had been slandered by being called a liar and then leapt right back to the libelous and unfounded crack accusation.

Klassic Ken!

by ProfRich on 07/08/2008 10:47:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
exactly (none / 0)
Ken considers this a "win" because it kept an unflattering discussion of Obama in view.  But this is the young turks ken.  I'm satisfied that you proved nothing.

by desertpear on 07/08/2008 01:20:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Cracker ass Cracker (none / 0)

Isn't McCain the King of Flip-Floppers?  Of course that message won't get out to the idiot voters of the US of A, but as slimy and squirmy as Obama has appeared in the last couple of weeks, his stances seem to have at least some principle behind them. 

 I think it's Ironic that people who scream Patriotism and Support the Troops are proud of all those who have died defending our Constitution, yet would use it as toilet paper the second it could affect their own personal safety. 

 

john mccain is THE Pander Bear 

 

Ken you piece of shit, you can spread your lies elsewhere please TY.   

by schmoab on 07/07/2008 12:57:14 PM EST

His face in that picture (none / 0)
makes me feel sad for him.  Aww, Panderbear.  Buck up lil' soldier.

by Spencer on 07/07/2008 05:27:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
McPanderbear (none / 0)

by desertpear on 07/07/2008 05:23:10 PM EST

Obama on FISA, not on Crack | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 hidden)
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