McCain pulling facts out of his ass

Email Print posted by callisto 07/08/2008 07:01:26 PM EST

Google Technorati del.icio.us digg reddit
watching McCain's speach to LULAC, don't think I'll be able to watch the whole thing, but this guy is just pulling "facts" out of his ass:

"the US is the biggest exporter in the world", WRONG

biggest exporter in the world is
1. Germany
2. China (EU is actually n° 2, even if you only take external trade)
3. USA

in comparison: Belgium with only 10 million people exports 1/3 of what the US exports and yes that's with universal healthcare, high taxes, almost free higher education, state pensions, etc)

also:
"more competition in healthcare will bring down prices" euh, you have healthcare running as any other business, result: expensive healthcare.
In contrast to Western & Northern Europe, where according to the UN, healthcare is better and cheaper, there's basically no competition.

it's clear that the McCain campaign does not look up things, they just report the facts as they want them to be
< Arming Mickey Mouse | Cenk's assessment of Obama's position on Iraq >
 Display:
McCain pulling facts out of his ass | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 hidden)
HEY!!!! (none / 0)
I thought I was the one who pulled facts out of my ass here!!I hate competition, you know! On a serious note, do you expect "facts" and "truth" in American politics? :)

by bobo1 on 07/08/2008 08:19:05 PM EST

true :) (none / 0)
what annoys me, most is that reporters also don't fact check these kind of things and let these guys keep saying that

too many time do they buy into this BS

remember when Sicko came out and you had hosts like Matthews accepting Repug talking points as fact, one was "socialised medicine would hurt drug research"

you know I went to check the numbers, top 10: biggest pharma company is American, Fizer (guess why), 2-6 European, ... if you add it up
=> US companies have a 19.4% market share (remember that Johnson & Johnson also has a lot of research facilities in Europe) while Euro companies have a 24.5% market share

and yes those euro companies make a bunch of new drugs

by callisto on 07/08/2008 08:43:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I denounce and reject this thread (none / 0)
Because it made me think of McCain's ass, which led me to think about him having sex with Cindy.  ACK!!!!!  Thankfully, they probably don't have sex. 

by desertpear on 07/09/2008 02:40:03 AM EST

Thoughts (none / 0)
"the US is the biggest exporter in the world", WRONG

It probably is wrong, but we won't know for a couple years. All economic data takes a long time to collect and revise. We can only really have confidence in economic data from a few years ago. Germany's exports are declining because of the rising euro. America's exports are rising because of the declining dollar. Germany, China and the U.S. are the top three exporters, but we won't know for a while their relative ranks. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that China is now the largest exporter.

Belgium with only 10 million people exports 1/3 of what the US exports and yes that's with universal healthcare, high taxes, almost free higher education, state pensions, etc)

America has socialized health care, high taxes, heavily subsidized education and state pensions. Belgium's per capita GDP is $35,300; America's is $45,800.

"more competition in healthcare will bring down prices" euh, you have healthcare running as any other business, result: expensive healthcare.

Wrong. American health care is subject to more regulations and government meddling than any other industry. What we do not have is a free market in health care.

It's interesting to examine those few medical services that are not socialized. Lasik is a good example. Laser eye surgery to correct myopia has actually fallen in price for many years. Perhaps competition in other services would also result in lower prices.

by Twba on 07/09/2008 02:02:30 PM EST

Can you imagine if the US was number 1... (none / 0)
.... and people would say what you said, Americans would go nuts. I think some Americans would try to find a way to say they're number 1, even if they're number 200. But if you want to go that way, you no longer can claim to be number 1 in anything else :)

You can only go by the latest numbers you have, that said: latest numbers are from 2007, also Germany being the biggest exporter isn't something new.

Declining dollar argument is something we've been hearing for a couple of years now, doesn't offset the trade inbalance in the least.
Same way I could claim the US is probably dropping, because of all the plant closures, the fact no one outside the US is buying American cars anymore because of the oil prices and German cars could be on the rise because of their better fuel milage. Or that Europe hasn't felt the same pain when it comes to oil, because oil is sold in dollars and the euro keeps rising against the dollar,... you see where I'm going with this? Go by the latest numbers. (still no excuse for McCain claiming what he said)

OK let's go slowly here, in Belgium
- everyone has universal healthcare from the moment you're born until the day you die (US has what? 50 million people without any health insurance)
- in % of GDP Belgium has 45.5 (3rd highest), US 27.3 (36th place), so don't complain about taxes http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/List_of_countries_by_tax_ revenue_as_percentage_of_GD P (btw Denmark, the numb er 1 spot to invest according to the latest numbers, has an even higher rate)
- it costs about €500 in tuition per year at Belgian universities and if your parents can't pay for it, they get an automatic reduction or free or even an allowance
- you can't loose that pension, it moves from job to job for everyone, how come I hear people loose their pension when companies go belly up in the US?
- GDP is lower, because we have less billionaires and wages are lower because we don't need as much money to pay for everything, taken into account all the stuff the state pays for
- US has a poverty rate that's way higher than Belgium, so there's more income equality

you know why there's more regulation? because you're playing with people's life, that said, it doesn't explain why Europe does so much better?

the price of laser eye surgery is probably dropping, because it used to be a new technique, now it isn't, so costs go down across the board, same what happens to LCD flat screens, what happened to DVDs, ...

by callisto on 07/09/2008 03:04:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Imagine whirled peas (none / 0)
OK let's go slowly here, in Belgium - everyone has universal healthcare from the moment you're born until the day you die (US has what? 50 million people without any health insurance)

Health care is not health insurance. Americans who lack insurance still have access to health care.

the price of laser eye surgery is probably dropping, because it used to be a new technique, now it isn't, so costs go down across the board, same what happens to LCD flat screens, what happened to DVDs, ...

There are many medical procedures that are no longer new but their prices have risen faster than overall inflation. Lasik is generally paid out of pocket not by insurance or the state. There is a capitalistic competition for customers that has driven down the price of laser eye surgery.

If DVD players were solely manufactured by the state and distributed free of charge to every citizen, how much would you pay in taxes and how many years would you wait to receive your 'free' DVD player?

BTW you ignored the main point how a people of only 10 million can export 1/3 of the US' 300 million, while not having people be paid a couple of bucks a day. or are you going to claim that workforce in Germany, Japan, France, Italy, ... are cheap as in China?

I was not and am still not in the mood to explain something so simple that you should already understand. Just google David Ricardo and comparative advantage.

by Twba on 07/11/2008 12:12:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
oh boy (none / 0)
yeah, in Europe healthcare means automatically that you're insured :) btw we they don't have waiting lines for operations etc in Belgium, there is enough supply as you would say

then how come France has the best healthcare system in the world at a lower price than the US, without having competition, please answer that one. I mean shouldn't the fact that you already have more competition than France make that it should be cheaper?

Don't you get that making a profit is the most important thing to these insurers and they need to make in on something, like denying people threatments, insane hospital bills (remember the guy who had to choose which finger would be reattached in Sicko?)

and continue to ignore that the US spends it's money in the wrong places, even more than other Western countries. everyone could be insured in the US, but they choose not to, because they like the money to go somewhere and to someone else

by callisto on 07/11/2008 05:14:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Again (none / 0)
then how come France has the best healthcare system in the world at a lower price than the US, without having competition, please answer that one.

I repeat, the US does not have competition in virtually all of its health care sector. I used laser eye surgery as an example of the benefits of competition because it is one of the very few medical services subject to competition in the US.

Do you understand? Or do I need to type a little more slowly?

by Twba on 07/11/2008 08:15:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
let me clarify (none / 0)
because we seem to be talking about different things:

with competition, I mean those private insurers, don't tell me they don't compete amongst each other, because then I don't get why they make so many ads :)

by callisto on 07/11/2008 08:40:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Competition (none / 0)
with competition, I mean those private insurers, don't tell me they don't compete amongst each other, because then I don't get why they make so many ads

Health insurance is not health care. Health care is the medical service or pharmaceutical product that treats an injury or disease. Health insurance is a funding scheme too many people see as a way to get someone else to pay for their health care.

I seldom watch television so I can't verify the frequency of advertising for private insurers. Even if true, they are really aiming that advertising at employers. Very few Americans directly purchase health insurance. Most of us get health insurance as part of our employment compensation.

We have very little price competition for health care. The laser eye surgery is an exception to the rule. The prices of Lasik are prominently displayed. For most services the price is never revealed until long after the service has been performed. Most doctors can't answer the simple question: How much does this service cost?

When I walk into a grocery store, I see the prices of the goods prominently displayed. I can walk across the street to another store and compare prices. Those stores work hard to stock the goods I want at lower prices than the store across the street. That is competition.

by Twba on 07/15/2008 03:05:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
okay one more try (none / 0)
Health insurance is not health care. Health care is the medical service or pharmaceutical product that treats an injury or disease. Health insurance is a funding scheme too many people see as a way to get someone else to pay for their health care.

as I stated before in countries with universal health... they interchange the words care and insurance, the insurance isn't dependent upon where you work, you just have it through the state aka the representative of the society. So even if you're a kid, elderly, unemployed, ... you still are insured

will you get off the eye surgery and answer my question about how France can insure everyone better without competition for a lower price

"most services the price is never revealed until long after the service has been performed"

then change the system so they do know, I mean if I go for a liposuction they can tell me how much it is :) fix it

by callisto on 07/15/2008 04:00:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Still trying (none / 0)
then change the system so they do know, I mean if I go for a liposuction they can tell me how much it is :) fix it

I'm glad to see we're in agreement that the US health care system is not a free market and would be improved if it were more like a free market. Glad to have you on board.

answer my question about how France can insure everyone better without competition for a lower price

American health care is very expensive. But it is not necessarily true that it is worse or no better than health care in Western Europe.

according to every international study out there: America does not have the best healthcare system!!!! Most Western-European countries have better care.

According to a EUROCARE study, American health care is quite good:

Survival rates in the areas of the USA covered by the Surveillance, Epidemiology and End Results (SEER) programme up to the 1990s were higher than in western Europe for most of the common adult cancers....

For colorectal cancer, the range in age-standardised 5-year relative survival rates for men diagnosed during the period 1990-1994 among the 22 countries contributing to EUROCARE-3 (27-55%) is much wider than -- and has no overlap with -- the corresponding range in colorectal cancer survival among men in the nine populations covered by the SEER programme in the USA during the same period (60-65%)....

The pattern is similar for breast cancer in women: the European range in age-standardised 5-year relative survival (60-82.6%) is wider than -- and again, does not overlap -- the range in the USA (83.1-88%)....

For these two common cancers, even the highest survival rates in Europe are not as high as the lowest survival rate in any of the nine areas covered by the SEER programme in the USA. The same pattern was observed for patients diagnosed with cancers of the breast (women), prostate, large bowel and lung in the period 1985-1989.

Not even France surpassed the good old US of A when it came to successfully treating cancers. This is not the first or only study to come to this conclusion.

forget anything a rightwinger has told you about so called socialised healthcare etc, they're lying

Maybe I should ignore anything a left winger Belgian in Prague tells me about American health care; he doesn't know what he's talking about.

by Twba on 07/15/2008 09:44:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
PATHETIC (none / 0)
"I'm glad to see we're in agreement that the US health care system is not a free market and would be improved if it were more like a free market. Glad to have you on board."

no, that just makes it a flawed free market system, btw don't change words from competition to free market

"American health care is very expensive. But it is not necessarily true that it is worse or no better than health care in Western Europe."

sure, why trust studies, I better listen to Repugs

"up to the 1990s were higher than in western Europe"

rest my case, there are numbers in there from before the Berlin Wall fell PATHETIC
also, wanna talk infant mortality rate? US does worse than Cuba (CIA Factbook one of those leftwing sources)

besides all the news, docus, ... most Americans here in Prague do not agree with you

by callisto on 07/15/2008 10:39:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Apathetic (none / 0)
no, that just makes it a flawed free market system

No, it's not a free market.

rest my case, there are numbers in there from before the Berlin Wall fell PATHETIC

The EUROCARE-3 study was published in 2003 and "includes detailed information on survival up to 5 years after diagnosis for 1.8 million adults and 24,000 children who were diagnosed with cancer during the period 1990-1994 and followed up to the end of 1999." The EUROCARE-4 study published in 2007 found that "for all solid tumours, with the exception of stomach, testicular, and soft-tissue cancers, survival for patients diagnosed in 2000-02 was higher in the US SEER registries than for the European mean." Cancer survival rates are improving in Europe and catching up with survival rates in America.

also, wanna talk infant mortality rate? US does worse than Cuba (CIA Factbook one of those leftwing sources)

The CIA, not the most trustworthy source to begin with, merely reprinted the press releases of Fidel Castro's regime, which is certainly not trustworthy. If your wife was experiencing a difficult pregnancy and needed an excellent neonatal clinic, would you go to America or Cuba?

by Twba on 07/16/2008 12:38:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
forget Cuba then (none / 0)
infant mortality rate is still double that of France

by callisto on 07/16/2008 03:23:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It always comes back to... (none / 0)
When it becomes obvious that American doctors and nurses are just as good if not better at treating cancer and other diseases than their counterparts in Western Europe, life expectancy and infant mortality are brought up. Why is this? Because the mountains of money spent on health care in the USA can not stop a fat, lazy bastard from clogging his arteries with doughnuts or stop an illiterate teenager from smoking crack during her pregnancy. No medical system goes to greater lengths to save lives than America's, but it is powerless to stop the self-destructive habits of so many Americans. Our propensity to live slightly shorter lives and to lose more infants is not a reflection of the quality of our health care; it is a reflection of a large proportion of our population making poor lifestyle choices.

by Twba on 07/23/2008 03:51:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You've shown your true face (none / 1)
So, according to you, infant mortality is so high in the US because of crack, do you realize what a couple percentages convert to? I know there's a crack problem, but that can't explain the problem by a long shot. Something so hateful can only come out of a Repug infected brain. LOW LOW LOW

Obese people are a reflection of lifestyle choices, not infant mortality. Next your probably going to say that poverty overall is a result of laziness.

Please, return to Faux News boards now, you've shown your true face and it ain't pretty.

by callisto on 07/23/2008 04:47:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Medicaid (none / 0)
Since Americans with the highest infant mortality rate are the very same Americans who get 'free' socialized medicine today, it's doubtful that moving all Americans into the socialized system will lower the infant mortality rate.

do you realize what a couple percentages convert to?

The infant mortality rate is calculated as number of infants not surviving their first year per one thousand live births. If there are a little over four million live births, then bringing the mortality rate down by 2.0 would mean about 8,000 fewer deaths. Does that sound about right to you?

Obese people are a reflection of lifestyle choices, not infant mortality.

The infant mortality rate for babies born to mothers who smoked tobacco during pregnancy is 11. Are you sure poor lifestyle choices have no bearing on infant mortality?

by Twba on 07/25/2008 07:24:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
8000 babies... (none / 0)
...you all flipped out over 3000 people dying!

The infant mortality rate for babies born to mothers who smoked tobacco during pregnancy is 11. Are you sure poor lifestyle choices have no bearing on infant mortality?

so in your mind French women smoke less than American women? Yes, Europeans are known not to drink and smoke :)
Again, I didn't say poor lifestyle choices don't make a difference, I content that that's the whole story + you give no basis for saying those lifestyle choices wouldn't be present in for instance France.
Stop picking individual areas and look at the overal picture and in that picture America is far from number 1. Because if we're going by individual areas, I can say Belgium scores very well on burn victims, having one of the leading recovery centers in the world (military burn center in Neder-over-Heembeek), every year foreign rich people and high ranking political people go their to receive treatment instead of their own country. That said Belgium ranks lower in the overal rankings.

by callisto on 07/28/2008 03:05:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Alternatives (none / 0)
I can walk onto a used car lot today. The salesman comes out and asks me what I'm looking for. I tell him the type of vehicle I'm shopping for. He shows me a vehicle. I ask how much. He tells me an outrageous price. I tell him there is no way I'm paying that much. We negotiate. If we settle on a price that we both agree is fair, I give him money and he gives me a car. Otherwise, I go to another used car lot and start the process over.

Now, if the used car industry was run like the American health care industry, I would walk onto a car lot that is in my approved network of used car providers and the salesman would ask me if I have insurance. I would show him proof of insurance. He would hand me the keys to a car that meets the minimum requirements of my insurance policy. If I asked him how much the car costs, he would not know because the billing department takes care of sending the bill to the insurer, the salesman just hands out keys. If I don't like the car, too bad. I would have to switch insurers if I want a better car.

And if the used car industry was run like national health care, I would sign up for a car and then wait eight years to take delivery of a Trabant. Or I would watch helplessly as the government confiscates the majority of my wages, forcing me to live in a tiny, cramped flat and brown bag my lunch every day -- all to have a cheap, nondescript sedan for "free."

by Twba on 07/15/2008 03:08:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do you actively ignore things people tell you? (none / 0)
1. forget anything a rightwinger has told you about so called socialised healthcare etc, they're lying

2. in Belgian/French/... system every doctor, hospital, specialist is covered, you can go to anyone YOU want

3. you don't have to wait to get the care (another lie), you go in, if you need surgery, you'll be rolled into to OR. If it's not urgent, they'll ask you to wait until the tomorrow so your stomach is empty

4. according to every international study out there: America does not have the best healthcare system!!!! Most Western-European countries have better care. And yes you can have a seperate room if you want (another lie), ....

by callisto on 07/15/2008 04:05:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
BTW you ignored the main point (none / 0)
how a people of only 10 million can export 1/3 of the US' 300 million, while not having people be paid a couple of bucks a day.

or are you going to claim that workforce in Germany, Japan, France, Italy, ... are cheap as in China?

by callisto on 07/09/2008 03:08:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
McCain isn't the only one who has this problem (none / 0)
what many Americans label "patriotism", is just plain old "nationalism", Erin Burnett this morning on Morning Joe about a new infrastructure plan in which they will repair the bridges, train engineers, ...: "and we keep America number 1 for airports, bridges, roads and tunnels"

really, America is number 1 in infrastructure, how out of it do you have to be?

14% of America's bridges have been labelled “structurally deficient"
cell phone and electricity networks are poor compared to Europe
highways and roads poor compared to Europe, you think Paris has a problem with potholes? (please, only reply if you've been)
airports? ever been to Frankfurt, Germany?

bridges and tunnels, don't other countries hold the records for longest, highest, most sophisticated bridges, ...

forget about Europe, you think the US can compete with Japan when it comes to infrastructure?

by callisto on 07/11/2008 05:45:04 PM EST

McCain pulling facts out of his ass | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 hidden)
 Display: