Georgia: A Massive Foreign Policy Meltdown

The phrase in the title I borrowed from (Michael Bergmann?) the show because it fits perfectly. TYT has done an excellent job giving us a primer on the issue.

The more I read about this crisis in georgia, the more I think it is going to go down as the second greatest foreign policy blunder in Bush's administration. Its a tough call, because the consequences of his negligence in the caucuses are probably worse than the Iraq war (his biggest blunder) in the long run, but as many of us predicted, Iraq would leave us dangerously over extended and unable to protect our interests abroad. Maureen Dowd has a scathing piece in the times, and I also recommend David Remnick's blurb at the New Yorker. The american people remain oblivious to the latest installment of gross incompetence from the crowd that brought us 9-11, Katrina, Iraq, Abu Garump, Gitmo, WMD, Torture and rendition, Plamegate, Attorneygate, the Hatch-act gate, Spygate, and my personal favorite, drunken-hunting accidentgate. McCain is being allowed to run around giving moral support to the Georgians for the cameras, with absolutely no discussion or question of how his bad faith leadership and poor judgement got us into a position of weakness opposite the russian bear. If you are conservative and you don't see red over Bush's mishandling of Georgia, you are dangerously naive.

"Go back to sleep america, your government is in control" --Bill Hicks.

Update [2008-8-17 16:2:51 by hazmat]: While our trolls preen about McCain's supposed involvement with the caucuses region, we are learning who is actually respected abroad. President Saakshvili has requested the assistance of Joe Biden, and admonished John W. McCain for his "empty words". John McCain is a bought and paid for political hack, not a serious player in an international crisis.

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you remember all the criticism Obama got because in the slightest possible way he critiqued Bush in Germany.

"you cannot critique the President on foreign ground" they said

first of I think it's an idiotic rule, I thought it was a free society? seems a very authoritarian rule IMO

now we have McCain actually interfering with foreign policy and be highly influenced by a foreign country! I'm glad some reporters are paying attention, this is 10x worse than what Obama did and in my opinion Obama didn't even do anything wrong.

I think Americans, whether they be fry cooks or senators, should be able to say what a pathetic looser El Jefe is anywhere on the whole damn planet, it's something I would like to call: freedom of expression. And is this case just plain obvious + you will get a lot of free beer from those scary foreigners :)

by callisto on 08/17/2008 07:09:17 AM EST

Not even you can believe it is OK for McCain to call for military intervention from a campaign event.

He also sent members of his pretend cabinet over to address the situation (Lieberman and Graham).

He criticized the presidents response in a foreign military crisis.  Sometimes I feel sorry for you that you have to defend obviously indefensible crap like this but then I realize you choose to do it.

McCain has now:

Given a speech about the end of his first term

Referred to himself as President McCain (a lot)

Sent representatives into a shooting war as if they were his cabinet members

Publicly announced American policy in reaction to a major political crisis

Forgot he was still a candidate and called himself the president ("Another president, Ronald Reagan, stood up to the Russians...")

Considering the ineptness of his campaigning and his endless blunders (he called the Georgian crisis the most significant foreign policy event since the end of the Cold War*) I think he's lost it and thinks in 2012 and he is running for reelection.  Or maybe he thinks its 2004 and he won in 2000 but either way, its not good.

 

 

*Since the end of the cold war: 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Kashmir, South Korean Nuclear crisis, Chechnya, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Somalia, Dar fur, Rwanda

by ProfRich on 08/17/2008 08:04:24 AM EST

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You are letting douche bag incompetent foreign leader decide your vote?

Jesus, as an American who loves America I am going to choose the American politician most qualified the be the American president based on good old fashioned American information.

If you want to let Georgia or France or whatever other foreigner Bush and McCain suck off determine our election that is your business.

God Bless America!

U-S-A, U-S-A!!!

by ProfRich on 08/17/2008 01:23:36 PM EST

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In addition to McCain's playacting like he's already been elected President, McCain's chief foreign policy adviser's (Randy Scheunemann) firm was paid over $800,000 by the Georgian government to lobby for them. They lobbied McCain himself and he co-sponsored bills and resolutions regarding Georgia.

This is what's commonly known as a "conflict of interest."

by Jeremydium on 08/17/2008 01:38:39 PM EST

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McCain is already acting like he is the Republican president.

If I would have said that, the massive bribes to act against our national security would have been implied.

My bad!

by ProfRich on 08/17/2008 03:03:37 PM EST

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or just plain old treason

by callisto on 08/17/2008 04:17:25 PM EST

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5 million people got killed there, highest number since World War II
 
but in Kenny's mind it probably goes something like this: "who cares, that was a black on black genocide"

McCain with that remark truely showed what a slime ball he really is, he showed it again at that evangelical forum, was sickening to watch

by callisto on 08/17/2008 04:15:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"You're black. You're not even a nigger. You're an African."

by ProfRich on 08/17/2008 05:17:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

 

Could it possibly be a question about how to act appropriately in a situation like this? Last I checked Bush is still the President, and for right or wrong, he and his administration have the responsibility to present the U.S. stance in any foreign situation or crisis.

That John McCain preempts the administration's statement and official position, and furthermore proceeds to send his own "emissaries" to Tbilisi and speaking publicly directly to Georgia and Russia, has the possibility of undercutting confidence in America's position. I think it might also have the adverse effect of limiting what options the White House has to choose between.

Bottom line. You touting "John McCain immediately went on the attack" as virtue is missing the point. The first thing you should consider is: Was it a good idea?!!. So I'd suggest to you KenTX that Obama wasn't slow. He was honoring the American Polical System, by acknowlegding that there is only one president, no matter if he agrees with him or not.

by whoosh on 08/17/2008 08:39:23 AM EST

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Rich has made my point.


by whoosh on 08/17/2008 08:44:10 AM EST

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no more you tube propaganda videos. See, those are not credible sources.

I guess what you are saying is that we should take on Russia militarily on this one. With what troops and what equipment? If you haven't heard, ours are busy right now.

by z1p101 on 08/17/2008 11:10:36 PM EST

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Define that please.

Didn't we already arm and train Georgian troops?

So what is next? Move our troops in to defend Georgia?

"Dude, I want you to take both hands, get a firm grip on your head, and try as hard as you can to get hold of yourself. You say you care about freedom?"

Yes I do care but our recent military blunders thanks to W make the world much less afraid of the US juggernaut. Need I link to a you tube video where Putin made that perfectly clear?

So what do you suppose we should do? 

by z1p101 on 08/18/2008 12:18:53 AM EST

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Nobody in Russia tries to bring back Soviet Union. South Ossetia crysis is a remnant of Stalin's policy. He had both Georgian and Ossetian forefathers and he wanted those nations to live in the same republic (and to squabble). That's all, basically. Nowdays South Ossetia clearly belongs with the much larger (and richer) North Ossetia in Russia. They are the same nation. And south ossetians don't want to be in Georgia. They want to be with their northern brothers in Russia. It's plain and simple.

I'm from Russia, I know this stuff.

by Hexer78 on 08/19/2008 05:45:48 AM EST

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Which alliances? Trade? Trade away! Ukraine can sell and buy anything. Military alliances? American bases near Russian border? American rocket bases near Russian border? That shit we don't want. Remember Cuban crysis? You never wanted Russian rockets on Cuba - we don't want American rockers in Ukraine.

Then again, we have naval base in Ukraine and we love it. Sevastopol is basically Russian (ethnically, culturally and historically). We don't want to lose that base. We fought for it in several bloody wars. It's like America losing Perl Harbor. Also, we have all kinds of military manufacturing cooperation with Ukraine. Soviet economy was very complicated and stretched across the country. It will very hard to compensate all those losses. And NATO will force Ukraine to buy American weapons and to shut the local production. Who will pay for that?

 And we don't want to target American bases in Ukraine. We don't want to target anything in Ukraine. We spent centuries fighting for those territories with Poles, Germans, Turks. We assembled present Ukraine like puzzle from blood soaked pieces.

by Hexer78 on 08/19/2008 07:14:39 AM EST

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I hope you're playing dumb, seriously would be really bad if you actually were that dumb

if not dumb, HYPOCRITE

like the US would allow alliances in it's neighbourhood with Russia, China or Iran

we see what happened with Cuba
... come on bring your rethuglican arguments why the Cuba blockade has other reasons
if so, why is the rest of world trading and investing in Cuba, should you see Canada and all the rest as halping the enemy?

by callisto on 08/19/2008 08:03:45 AM EST

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Anyway, Russia is for free trade in Ukraine, Georgia etc. Sell your soul - we don't care. Democracy? Democracy away. Build the best democracy ever. Just no American rockets near Russian border. And do not kill Russian citizens in South Ossetia. We love them.

by Hexer78 on 08/19/2008 08:16:07 AM EST

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I live in Prague and I don't want that missile shield, btw 70% of Polish and Czech citizens are against it

I even said: if you (Czechs) get hit in a first strike, it's your own fucking fault

look no love for Putin from me, I think he's a treator to Russia (for the shit he pulled in the 90s in St. Petersburg), but fair is fair, Bush is trying to pick fights with Russia

by callisto on 08/19/2008 08:44:13 AM EST

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Putin in Peter? That's old and obscure. And why treason? They were just selling stuff, AFAIK.

by Hexer78 on 08/19/2008 08:51:31 AM EST

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selling oil and other commodies for 1/8 to 1/200 of world market prices

lining the pockets of his Russian maffia friends

basically help create the oligarchs

...

he sold out the people of St Petersburg and they suffered during that winter

same with Bush, not treason, but it tells you everything you need to know about Bush: the football team, where he had the stadium built with public money and then reaped all the benefits from himself, he got rich by stealing from the people

by callisto on 08/19/2008 09:02:23 AM EST

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Well, yes. But Russia in 1991 was lawless, and everyone survived in one's own ways. I don't count those things as something outrageous. Bush is different. Stadium scandal was in lawful society with well-known rules of the game.

by Hexer78 on 08/19/2008 09:14:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
this was about large scale corruption on the back of people starving

survival is about stealing food, not plundering the treasury :)

read a book about it 10 years ago and it made me sick, Putin was nothing but a crook in the 90s

btw Russia had laws at that time and it seems American laws only apply when you're not super rich, if you're rich enough you can get away with anything

by callisto on 08/19/2008 07:54:11 PM EST

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Lets not drag football into this.

I am going to that stadium Friday, actually. 

by ProfRich on 08/19/2008 10:34:01 AM EST

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Why, in the last half of hte 20th century, would we not let Cuba, Argentina, Venezuela, Nicaruagua or El Salvador cozy up to Russia?

Not to mention Korea, Afghanistan and Vietnam. 

Guess we felt it worked against our national self-interest.

Did it make us evil?

Should Russia have obliterated us? 

by ProfRich on 08/19/2008 10:23:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]
at Saakshvili's request. See update in the original post.

by hazmat on 08/17/2008 04:04:29 PM EST

as Chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations

by callisto on 08/17/2008 04:19:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Just to head this rightie talking point off at the pass.

McCain said he "sent" Graham and Lieberman over there.

Biden, who is clearly qualified and has reason, is going on his own.

Huge difference.  Obama did not send Biden.

by ProfRich on 08/17/2008 05:14:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
on McCains team? that's a pretty stupid move, so i guess it means john still wants to take that dumbass's advice

by holy noize on 08/17/2008 07:52:43 PM EST

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Did you see that video clip from Fox?  There was a 16 year old girl from San Fransisco who was there visiting her family.  They were sitting in a coffee house when the bombs started going off.  She thanked the Russians for protecting them from the bombs sent by the Georgians.  Her grandmother was there saying the same thing.  I think the people in those areas wanted Russia to help them break away from Georgia.  

Just the way McCain struts and postures, you know he can't be serious and hasn't a clue.   

by pdsimdars on 08/17/2008 09:12:41 PM EST

Sure as hell not you.

People like you don't give a damn if Russia reverts to totalitarian communism, and returns to the days of domination of all the countries of Europe and Asia.

You're one to complain while your government borrows its torture manual from the communists.

Your head must be splitting like the anti-gay bigot Ted Haggard's did on the day that he realized he was spectacularly gay. George W. Bush and John W. McCain with their incompetent leadership have created strategic space for Iran to become ascendant in the middle east, and now they have enabled the ascendancy of the russian Bully, Vladimir Putin.

Your president was asleep at the wheel and allowed this to happen. He looked into Putin's soul and saw that it was good. Remember? The world was laughing at us on that day.

You lash out in your shame over your own vile subservience to the party that weakened our once great country militarily and economically to the point where others snicker privately when our president declares that "there will be consequences". Those of us who are not pacifists but were nonetheless opposed this war in Iraq from the beginning  predicted that this would happen.

We were right. You were wrong.

That is the subject of this thread. In fact, it was the punchline. Apparently you can't read. If you had an ounce of patriotism at all, you would be calling for W's head on a platter. But you don't.

by hazmat on 08/18/2008 12:07:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Who gives a shit?


by ProfRich on 08/18/2008 01:04:54 AM EST

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No one gives a shit?

Enjoy your debate!  I'll be over in Relevantland if you need me.

by ProfRich on 08/18/2008 01:35:28 AM EST

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don't argue with this idiot.

He runs away every time the facts become "overbearing" to his message. 

by z1p101 on 08/18/2008 01:44:53 AM EST

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I don't blame him for running.  Prolonged stress brought on by unfounded fear of other countries (and by the overwhelming burdon of trying to make the average person understand that fear) can be an express ticket to an early grave:

wise fwom yo gwave! 

by OneHitKill on 08/18/2008 03:09:31 AM EST

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careful.

"We are ready to debate the issue, with or without Democrats."

I heard that will cause you to grow hair on your palms and go blind. 

by z1p101 on 08/18/2008 10:40:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]

the idea of economically "starving" out the old USSR to destroy it was well known and encouraged during  The JFK era. It's roots probably dated back further than that. What do you think the Lunar Landing was really all about?

Every president (Democrat or Republican) worked towards this tragedy.

Ken, listen to Limbaugh, live in your own little world and shut up. 

by z1p101 on 08/18/2008 01:08:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't need to go back 40 years, ken. I'll go back about a decade.

We defeated Newt Gingrich's twin brother, Slobodan Milosovic

 

the brutal dictator of the former Yugoslavia and leader of the Socialist party of Serbia. Democratic leadership both military and diplomatic was able to quickly and nimbly dispatch this clown, as I have dispatched you. This led to the spread of freedom, and the self-determination of a new freedom-loving people, the Kosovars (who are muslim, by the way).

You have no leg to stand on. Your world view has been laid waste. As the realization dawns on you of your utter verbal distruction at my hands, you will barely have time to close your gaping maw before the counter challenge comes.

George W. Bush has failed to execute his oath of office as I stated in the main blog above. I'd like you to defend his record on this matter, or man up and admit you're wrong. To help you sort out your internal conflicts, I'm reproducing the oath below:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

<chirp chirp>

<chirp chirp>

 

by hazmat on 08/18/2008 01:56:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]
that's a pretty thin rail to hang your hat on Ken. Its also not good enough to get you out of answering my challenge. That's okay, I understand the cognitive dissonance is too much for you to handle after losing this bruising but short skirmish that ended with your bloodied corpse on the floor. I'm surprised you even showed your virtual face in this thread. Bush is the biggest embarrassment in American history, and you are his biggest supporter.

by hazmat on 08/18/2008 02:37:51 AM EST

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They've been beating communists in American elections, have they not?  What more protection do you need?  Take a day or two off being paranoid, you might like it.

by OneHitKill on 08/18/2008 03:12:10 AM EST

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Communism died in '89. Whatever Milosevic and Putin wish to call themselves thereafter is quite irrelevant. "Global Communism" is irrelevant.

The campaign in Bosnia was a NATO enterprise. The north atlantic treaty organisation was created to contain Russian ambition. Clinton supported and nurtured our alliances in NATO. He took NATO to war. NATO expanded on Bush's watch, wich is a good thing. He also systematically alienated important NATO Allies. But the heart of the argument we're having my friend, is NATO's raison d'etre (I can use French now that Sarkozy has brought his country back into the fold), the containment of Russian ambition.

That is unquestionably what has come crashing down in spectacular fashion at the end of Bush's presidency. It will go down as the biggest failure of Bush's presidency, something I didn't think possible after the botched occupation of Iraq.

That is why I'm calling you out. It is you that has gone off topic my friend. You can choose to live in 1974, but I came of age after the fall of communism, and my two children

 

will be left with the catastrophic legacy of your antiquated world view. God help us all, and god help you, KenTX. Good night.

 

by hazmat on 08/18/2008 04:08:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Ken's right about something!

by Spencer on 08/18/2008 06:59:21 AM EST

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Take that, children haters!

by ProfRich on 08/18/2008 08:35:27 AM EST

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Have a smart daddy. 

by desertpear on 08/18/2008 12:39:23 PM EST

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This is a masterpiece of confusion, self contradiction and delusion.

Bravo!

by ProfRich on 08/18/2008 12:29:03 AM EST

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you are a total nitwit when it comes to history and geography

"and returns to the days of domination of all the countries of Europe and Asia"

really, when was this?????????? You see during the cold war the USSR and USA had their spheres of influence in both Europe and Asia

some countries were dominated by the USSR, others by the USA

neither USSR or USA has ever had "domination of all the countries of Europe and Asia"

TOOL

by callisto on 08/18/2008 07:01:56 AM EST

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