Human races the same a dog breeds?

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I posted this in another thread related to the Taylor interview, but think it is worthy of its own post. 

Flame On

Although I do agree that taylor is probably a racist and the motivations for his work are not pure, I do think the interview showed a very important cultural phenomina...it is impossible to have a real, rational discussion about race without it devolving into shouting and name calling. 
The polically correct common wisdom about race is highly contradictory, yet anyone who challenges it is imedeatly labled as hitler.  This common wisdom claims that every race is the same and there are no real differences in the capabilities of the races.  On the other hand it also states that diversity is good and that a mix of different races together is stronger than one race on its own, implying that each race brings something different to the table.  Both of these statements cannot be true as they are mutually exclsive. 

What is far more likely is that the races truely are different in some important ways (This statement is not racist, but using it to treat people differently is...this is a very important distinction).  The closest example in "nature" is dog breeds.  Genetically all dogs are almost exactly the same, but no one who has ever spent time around a number of different types of dogs would claim that they are all the same.  Pitbulls as a breed are generally more agressive than labs, grey hounds are generally faster than basset hounds, some breeds have higher energy, some breeds are easier to train, etc.  This is because cultural selection has guided their evolution to be good at specific tasks. 

It would not be too much of a stretch to assume that this has also occured, albeit likely at a slower rate, in humans.  In humans, selection is not only natural, but cultural as well.  Different cultures have different values, therefore different selection pressure when breeding.  Give this process thousands of years and it is not suprising that there are significant differences between races even though we all come from the same ancestors. 

As can be shown with all domesticated plants and animals, evolution occurs faster when it is guided by human intelligence.  Why would we think that this force does not apply to ourselves as well?

Those blinded by political correctness can commence calling me a racist now! 
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There is a wide disparity between the similarities in genetics between races and between dog species. Sorry dude, but the genetic difference between races varies about as much as the genetic difference between hair colour. There's pretty much none.

 And whats with people who're wrong chastizing those who call them out on it for being "politically correct"? Just because I'm reality correct, not politically correct, doesn't mean you should disparage me. This is something guys like Glenn Beck do....say he's not going to be politically correct for a second, thinking it gives him license to be a bonehead.

 

I think political correctness is as gay as the next fella, but come on now 

by Perry on 08/20/2008 02:31:00 PM EST


Dog breeds are not distinct "species."  They are just that--breeds.  All domestic dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) belong to a single subspecies of the Grey Wolf (Canis lupus).

by desertpear on 08/21/2008 01:38:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]

it has become impossible to have an intelligent discussion on race in the u.s. because:

(a) [the scientifically ignorant position] some people deny the very existence of race as a biological category. never mind that tay-sachs affects the ashkenazim, and sickle-cell anemia affects africans (and african descendents) far more than the general population. or the fact that almost all the top 3 olympic medals in the 100m dash in almost all the recent games over the past 30years have been won by runners of west african descent while there is a similar overwhelming dominance in the 10km-marathon categories by runners of east african descent.

(b) [the dumb position] some people think that it is okay to accept the reality of race as long as one attributes only good qualities to different races, and avoids anything that might be deemed derogatory, or use race as a purely cultural self-identification mechanism (you wouldn't want to lose affirmative action benefits).

(c) [the most insidious position of all] some people accept, in their minds, the reality of races and the different average physical and intellectual endowments this confers on different racial groups, but feel that any frank talk on the subject will only lead to the abuse of such information to suppress and discriminate against specific groups. in other words, these people consider themselves to be so enlightened that they are doing their best to save the unwashed masses from mob bias through enforced ignorance. 

 

mixed in with all this is the classic "naturalistic fallacy"---confusing an "is" with an "ought", and thinking that scientific facts (human races represent systematic variations in genetic loci) should be used as a basis for designing a just and fair legal and moral code for society.

there is also a deep distrust of any form of genetics (quite independent of race-talk) because some people insist on confusing causation with pre-determination and complete inflexibility (as if it is somehow impossible to ever transcend the tendencies and soft-limits imposed on one by their genes, regardless of countervailing influences of environment, education, training, or wealth).

 

it is extremely unfortunate (but not surprising) that almost all of the suppression of race-talk has come from the left, and the desire to go on witch-hunts is so out of control that even legitimate opinions (recent examples of larry summers or james watson) get ruthlessly suppressed. it is not just the right that engages in an assault on reason or takes leave of the reality-based community---the left is equally capable of being as detached from science and sense when it comes to its own sacred cows.

by neo on 08/20/2008 03:43:13 PM EST


If you didn't know already, Dog Breeding was inherently developed during the same times that the breeders were trying to prove that Blacks were inferior and whites superior.  It sucks that you can use the dog breeding argument to try and prove your point about race, because dog breeding is really quite yuppy, and elitist.  One of my biggest problems with the whole dog breeding argument is that once you inbreed the "breed" for so long, the offspring are, shall we say "retarded".  DNA by default thrives on diversity, and not on copying.  A lot of problems arise when the DNA is too much alike between breeding animals...just throwing it out there...put some thought behind it.
Chris

by chrisandyasemin on 08/20/2008 04:37:05 PM EST


Natural selection does not apply as simply as it seems with humans.  We have "artificial selection" which is basically the human free will to make bad decisions.  Also, our medicine has made natural selection less of a physical process, and more of a class process.  People's livelihood has a lot to do with what social class they are born into, and what class they are able to get to, and not so much how good their DNA is.  Personally, I think race does not exist, as no two races are unable to procreate and have fertile off-spring.  These "racial lines" are true superficial differences, but the differences in personality that are caused by environment far outweigh the affects of "race" as a whole.  However, specific hereditary problems from "parents" will have just as much affect on personality as environment, the racial lumping of statistics is a false sense of reality, as location/class has more effect on a population's health as a whole.  This has been proven by taking black children and rearing them in white houses in wealthy homes.  The black children score the same as white children if they are reared in the same environment, and the scores are only disparate when the learning conditions are disparate. 
DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

by chrisandyasemin on 08/20/2008 04:44:14 PM EST


I would say cultural selection is a better term than "artificial selection".  I would argue that adding the human mind to the selection process has vastly increased the rate of change in humans vs. other species. 

As for races being able to procreate, I never suggested the are different species, only more different than people can talk about in polite company.  Almost every breed of dog can procreate with eachother and those that can't it is more of a physics problem (think chiuaua and st. bernard) than a biological problem (probably could be done with artificial insemination).  

One thing that is an issue for humans more so than dogs is that there are far fewer "pure bred" humans than dogs.  The different races/cultures have been mingling with eachother quite a bit throughout history, at least since sailing ships were invented and in places that were accessable by land.  I guess in many ways at this point we're pretty much all just a bunch of mutts. 

by alphasigmookie on 08/21/2008 12:06:41 AM EST

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Artificial selection is the technical term used in biology to indicate that human selection was involved in the process of breeding, and not just natural causes.  I would like to say that I made up the term, but I learned it in my BIO class at IU...

by chrisandyasemin on 08/21/2008 10:50:18 AM EST

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A lot of the differences attributed to genetics are actually cultural.  It's obvious when you see children of different races adopted by families of another race who then grow up with the attributes of their adoptive families.  Our problem is a cultural one.  The African sub-culture in America is a direct descendent of the slave sub-culture created by Europeans in early American history.  The two probably could have merged much more quickly if open discrimination had been discarded officially after the  civil war, but it wasn't.  It didn't really happen until 1968.  That's made things much, much tougher.  I do know that it has improved greatly over the last 40 years but there is obviously still a ways to go.  I don't see how creating new divisions is the answer.  If you start with this "genetically different" stuff you start to emphasize unimportant differences and create new artificial bounderies that you damn well know certain assholes are going to seize as an excuse to create a new class of "us" and "them". 

There's already "us" Christians and "them" Muslims, "us" whites and "them" blacks (latinos, asians, arabs, etc), there's "us" rich folks and "them" poor folks, "us" Democrats and "them" Republicans, "us" Americans and "them" Europeans (Arabs, Asians, Russians, Mexicans), "us" capitalists and them "communists",&nbs p; "us" southerners and "them" northerners, "us" athiests and "them" believers, "us" eggheads and "them" laborers.  How many times can we divide our loyalties before we start to get schizophrenic about who we are?

by bfaul on 08/20/2008 05:19:50 PM EST


I will agree that cultural differences are probably more important than genetic differences, but it also stands to reason that cultural differences can LEAD to genetic differences.  Dogs have been specialized in a few thousand (hundred?) years based on concious human decisions on breeding.  These same concious, cultural decisions also have historically held strong influence over who reproduces or reproduces the most in most human cultures.  More and more evidence is showing up that very small genetic differences, especially in regards to gene propomoters can result in significant changes in phenotype.  Thus, although all races generally have the same basic set of genes, they may exhibit radically different expression of those genes based upon what was historically, cultureally valued in their ancestor's society. 

by alphasigmookie on 08/20/2008 11:55:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

You write "This common wisdom claims that every race is the same and there are no real differences in the capabilities of the races."

I can't claim to speak for everyone, but does anyone really believe that there are no differences in the capabilities, taken as an average, between the races? Studies certainly have not borne this claim out. There do appear to be differences that break down among racial lines, apart from those used to define the races, of course.

The right claim to make in the face of this is that such differences are not relevant to questions of value, or to questions about the capabilities of individuals. Because a group of people may be stronger, taller, smarter, more artistic, or whatever, should have no bearing on the moral worth of that group or of the individuals composing that group.

by Tullius on 08/21/2008 09:35:28 AM EST


The original IQ Test (The Stanford-Binet) was rewritten after black military officers outscored white military officers.

It was deemed obviously flawed and reworked until the whites scored higher. 

by ProfRich on 08/21/2008 01:57:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Though I cannot say that I'm surprised.

I should've noted that many of the tests used to justify claims of racial differences are not clearly reliable measures of the relevant abilities.

by Tullius on 08/21/2008 02:04:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Although it is likely true, it is certianly not common wisdom and it definitely is not politically correct to point it out. 

One of my points in the original post was that you can't have it both ways.  Either diversity is good because it brings together people with different and potentially complimentary capabilities or it is completely irrelevant because everyone is the same. 

by alphasigmookie on 08/21/2008 02:28:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/Artificial_selection

Human intervention does not actually fall into NATURAL SELECTION, so in essence dog breeding has no value in discussing NATURAL SELECTION, because it is ARTIFICIAL, and the results of this type of selection are not necessarily more advantageous to the resulting creature, thus artificial selection actually hinders "survival of the fittest" and it becomes "survival of the cutest and most loveable"...this is why the dog eat dog nature of humans has overshadowed the altruistic rational thinking type of human, because once you throw in human cognition, all the NATURAL in NATURAL SELECTION becomes moot. 

by chrisandyasemin on 08/21/2008 10:58:02 AM EST


I would argue that artificial selection is the ONLY thing that allows altruistic and "rational" thinking human to exist.  The world is a whole lot less "dog eat dog" now that modern society requires only a small fraction of our population to grow and provide food.  Allow the breakdown of our current complex society, especially the food supply chains and you'll see REAL dog eat dog! 

Of course artificial selection tends to optimize towards the specific cultural environment, so the resulting people may be suboptimal for some significantly different cultural paradigm. 

by alphasigmookie on 08/22/2008 03:59:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Who is well-known and has been on History channel several times, told us that there is no genetic basis for the concept of races in the human population.  It's just a made up construct. 

by schmoab on 08/21/2008 07:14:05 PM EST


That if you use a black man's sperm with a white woman's egg you get a black baby born to a white woman? 

by alphasigmookie on 08/22/2008 03:33:16 PM EST

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