Let's Talk About Race, Baby!

Last week, Baratunde Thurston and I appeared on MSNBC together to talk about the infamous NY Post chimp cartoon. Since then, we have been having the national conversation about race that Eric Holder wanted us to (he didn't call us directly, we just inferred from his comments).

Baratunde came up with the idea of doing a series of You Tube videos on this so that we can explain ourselves a little more fully. He did Part I over the weekend. You can check it out by clicking here.

We agree on a lot, but our differences lie in what we emphasize. And I am emphasizing reaching out to all Americans, including and especially white Americans. If the NY Post cartoon is racist, then it's white Americans that we have to convince of that case. And ironically, calling it racist is the worst way to do that.

For some strange and interesting reason, many white folks I've talked to will defend the cartoon as if they drew it. They keep saying the same thing, "I don't see what all the fuss is about." It is my point below in Part II of this You Tube conversation that we should help them see:

I know it seems a little hokey but we are also asking you to join the conversation here. I have shared this series with my friends. And so far they are largely on Baratunde's side (why am I not surprised?). They think this cartoon is so clearly racist that it passes my reasonable doubt test. Based on reactions I have gotten from others, I'm not so sure. But I'm learning something with every conversation we have on this topic.

Most importantly, sharing these perspectives gets us closer to a common vision. I almost think this national conversation thing is starting to work. So, to paraphrase Salt-n-Pepa, let's talk about race, baby!

Watch The Young Turks Here

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Let's talk about race in every aspect and definition of the word. I"ll start it off. I'm a 1st generation Mexican American, and I feel like people like me are considered second class citizens. Despite how much progress there's been there's still those stereotypes that how ever subtle  or funny they might be cause or push a person to develop a negative view of any race.

by snapple120 on 02/24/2009 03:39:27 AM EST

and since you opened it up... I will tell you what I think..

People make comments about Mexicans all the time.. Mexican-Americans... etc... However, they don't make them to a Mexican's face.. they make them to other white people.  They're looking for the other caucasian person to laugh and agree.

I live in Arizona. The common stereotypes about Mexicans are that they have too many kids and that they speak Spanish when they really should be learning English. Other concerns are that there are just too many Mexican-American's here and that they're illegal and stealing our jobs, not paying taxes and taking advantage of our social benefits and medical care.  Also, people talk about how they "steal" and don't have morals.

We have a long way to go here in Arizona.... and every time some ignorant moron goes off about Mexicans I'm not one of the people that stays quiet.  I just tell them that Arizona was formerly Mexico until the US government declared an illegal war on Mexico for the purpose of stealing their land. That's a fact. Therefore, you know what, the Mexicans were here FIRST and if you don't like it, then move back to Florida or whatever.  And I will argue, point by point, about any of the issues we face here.  Yes, there are some Mexicans or Mexican Americans who are jerks and do bad things. But I am a firm believer that all races are created with an equal number of jerks.  No one race has the corner on the market for bad people.

I hate racism. I think it's unfortunately something that people perpetuate by teaching racism to their kids.  I also think that the more stupid the person, the more likely they are to be racist.

Now, I'm friends with a lot of Hispanic people... and I also find that Puerto Ricans or Columbians think they're superior to Mexicans and will "go off" about that. Again, it's the more stupid Puerto Ricans or Columbians that perpetuate hate for Mexicans.

Also, I know a lot of Mexican-Americans who complain about illegal immigrants from Mexico. Often they are more outspoken than anyone about the issue of illegal immigration.  Finally, I know some illegal immigrants who I think are just awesome people and I really feel for their plight and wish I could help them.

Yes, there are stereotypes.. and that's different than racism though. Stereotypes can be a useful way of predicting behavior. For example, since we're talking about Mexican-Americans, one stereotype is that they are closer to their families and do more together as a family unit. So, although some people make fun of Mexican families for all piling together in the car to go somewhere (including Mexicans) it's often because they do more things together. It's not necessarily because they're poor or they "have to" it's because they want to... and because they value doing things as a family.  That's actually a very good thing, in my opinion. What's wrong with having big families? I'm Irish-American and we are known for big families...

Where racism comes into play is where it comes back to this subtle hatred and threat of violence. And that brings me back to the cartoon that started this whole blog post...

That cartoon is racist, because there's that "secret hand-shake" "wink-wink" under the covers threat of bigotry and violence... That cartoon alludes to the fact that racist white people often say that African Americans are more like monkeys AND the fact that some of these racist bastards would like to see Obama get shot. I'm telling you, Cenk is too naive about this stuff. The cartoon is racist. It was wrong.

by ilovecenk99 on 01/22/2010 10:31:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The question of whether or not the cartoon is racist can be easily answered by any reasonable person in simply assessing the level of sophistication of both the creator and publisher. Assumption of a non racist intent requires the notion that both creator and publisher lack the requisite sophistication, understanding and knowledge of historical simian references. Frankly it is unfathomable to make such a leap in this instance considering both artist and publisher have enjoyed long carreers in their field, endeavors which demand an abundance of knowledge in social matters. The "oh, jeez, I guess I didn't notice that" defense is insulting and ludicrous. Racist and intentional? Guilty on both counts! Now what? Paraphrasing Mother Theresa when asked to march against the war in Vietnam, 'no I will not march against the war, ask me to march FOR peace and I'll be there'. The value in moving beyond name calling lies in the oppotunity for us to create what it is that we are FOR rather than living inside that which we oppose. Our world is created by the expression of our thoughts through words and deeds. Rising above labeling and name calling does not deny the truth about these matters, but rather allows us to create a world abundant in that which we are FOR.

by cjetmusic on 02/24/2009 09:37:23 AM EST

You are advocating a double standard based stickly on race. If the president is white it's okay to do an entire website Bushorchimp.com making fun of how Bush looks like a chimp, but an innocuous cartoon about the author of the stimulus bill is taboo.

Either both or acceptable or neither are acceptable. Double standards continue to promote racism and bigotry.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 02/24/2009 12:18:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
and he acted like a chimp....

But I digress....

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't exactly nice of people to make fun of President Bush, but we're not talking about being nice.  Any President, no matter what his race, is going to be made fun of for something. He's going to be mocked. He's going to be imitated.  He's a major figure and it's just the American tradition. It's always been that way.

But, I see your point, Hubble, I really do.. and it makes me think for a second. Perhaps because of my disdain for Bush I thought the chimp jokes were funny and because of my immense liking for Obama I don't want anyone to mock him. I'll concede that.

But showing him mocked and shot dead at the same time is a little beyond the pale, no?  How can any American (Dem or Republican) think an image of their President shot dead is funny? I don't remember any cartoons of Bush being portrayed as a dead chimp, do you?

by ilovecenk99 on 01/22/2010 10:59:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Everybody knows what sports locker rooms can be like, you don't have to have been inside one to understand the expression "keep it for the locker room" as referring to a certain kind of speech. It doesn't just imply a more laid back atmosphere, it implies an entire code of conduct with social mores and norms which are different than those generally accepted in society. Just so I don't think you need to have been inside a NY City Police locker room to understand that behind the so-called "thin blue line" there are probably ethos (or lack there of).

Is the damage done? Can it not be undone? Meaning is this cartoon already pasted up on some cop's locker? Have there already been jokes made with reference to say sights and scopes and apes and monkeys with reference to African Americans in derogatory, disparaging and racist terms? I'd guess yes, but I have not been inside a NY City Police locker room recently, so how do I really know. Just a guess though.

I hadn't thought about it in those specific terms until I listened to Baratunde's comment on HuffPo so I agree I'd like to see more of this extended format in the future from the two of you. Thanks again for the great work and all your effort.



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by LISA31sx on 01/22/2010 07:17:36 PM EST

Okay, Cenk.. since you can't see the racism in this particular post.. let's try another route...

Let's take a controversial and openly gay politician... like Houston's Mayor Annise Parker. And let's say that a lot of people were really unhappy that there was an openly gay mayor and it was out-in-the open. Let's say she had been getting a lot of death threats.

Then let's say the Houston Chronicle runs a cartoon and in the cartoon is an image of a Texas Ranger standing over a dead fairy shot full of bullet holes. Let's say that dead fairy is wearing a nametag that says Annise Parker.

Now, there could be whole backstory about Tinkerbell getting shot by Texas Rangers. However, don't tell me that people are going to stand by and not say something about it being unfair that the lesbian mayor is portrayed as a dead fairy in a gruesome cartoon.  Somebody is going to speak out and say that whoever drew that cartoon is inciting violence against lesbians.  It's going to happen.

Given that you are a supporter of gays and that you abhore violence against lesbians I wonder how you might react to the cartoon on your show... Would you give them a pass and say it was just a coincidence that the cartoonist found a way to portray the gay mayor as a fairy and also that the cartoonist depicted her suffering some act of horrible violence? Maybe you would give the cartoonist the benefit of the doubt. Maybe not.. I'm just saying that sometimes people push things too far... we can't just look the other way...

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