04/07/2009 04:51:57 PM EST

Turkish-Armenian Problem

posted by ugur90

During his visit to Turkey, Obama encouraged Turkey and Armenia to solve their problems and use diplomacy to solve their differences in the near future. He refrained from using the phrase "Armenian Genocide". A lot of people beleive the only beef between these nations is the controversy over the "Armenian Genocide" but I believe there is a bigger problem. 

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First of all as a Turk, I personally do not believe that the Armenian Genocide occured. I believe there were killings on both sides and that it cannot be a 100% proven. But this is a subject that should be decided by historians only and not regular people or politicians. There are 2 things that really annoy me

1)50 years ago America nuked Japan and Germany invaded Europe but the whole world has moved along and now they are influential world powers. If the rest of the world can forgive each other for something that happened 50 years ago and us and the Armenians still can't get over an issue that happened almost a century ago then I am ashamed and the Armenians should be ashamed. I do not think this issue should shape the the relationship between the two states. We were a different state back then and what happened then is not the responsibility of the current Turkish government

 2)There seems to be a feeling on both sides that who ever wins this issue over the genocide controversy will win the theoretical "Turkish-Armenian cold war". Some people in Turkey think that if the Armenian Genocide is proven then Armenians will invade or something and if the Genocide is dropped then Armenia will forever live as a landlocked blockaded country. I mean if the Genocide was proven or rejected today I don't think a lot would change.

 

The biggest problem for me in the Armenian-Turkish relations, as it should be for the Turkish government is the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict over the Nagorno-Karabakh War. Azerbaijan is a Turkic majority country. They almost speak the same language. If you're a Turk you can understand 90% of what they say. I think before the Armenian-Turkish relations can move forward this crisis must come to a complete solution and Armenia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and the US should get involved. I think if Turkey suddenly moved forward with Armenian relations with this issue still out there it would be unfair to our friends in Azerbaijan. Hopefully it will be solved soon though

 

It really annoys me when Turks and Armenians who have never met each other look at one another with mistrust over an issue that took place when the Turkish Republic didn't exist and when both of them weren't even alive. I'm also angered by other countries who push for one side even though they are not involved in the issue .(France has declared that denying the Genocide is illegal.) I think both governments have done an inadequate job to bring peace and cooperation between each other and are still clinging to the past instead of looking to the future 

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Turkish-Armenian Problem | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
Reconciliation (none / 0)

I, too, don't want to get into whether or not the events during and after the first world war qualify as "genocide". It is estimated, however, that 300,000 to 1.5 million Armenians were killed through massacres and death marches.

The reason why this is still an issue is that there hasn't been an effective reconciliation process between the two countries, and seemingly no honest assessment of what happened on the Turkish part. Until quite recently, it was illegal in Turkey to call said events a genocide, which prevented any real discussion.

Germany has done a lot to regain its place in the international community and to rebuild good relations to the Jewish people and all those countries that had suffered under German occupation during the second world war. Admittedly, the extent of the crimes committed by the nazis was far larger than anything the Turks may have done.

The circumstances following the first and second world wars didn't make easier for Turks and Armenians to reconcile - Armenia had been absorbed by the  Soviet Union, while Turkey joined the NATO. It is time for both countries to get together and honestly investigate what really happened, and do what it takes to establish good relations and overcome those hard feelings that obviously are still there.

by OldGerman on 04/07/2009 06:00:31 PM EST

agreed (none / 0)
I agree. I hope Obama has encouraged my government to take better action and to finally look to the future instead of looking to the past.

by ugur90 on 04/07/2009 06:14:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Of course... (none / 1)
You don't think killing 1.5 million people is called a genocide? I would like to hear what your definition of genocide is. I'm extremely curious.

If the tables were turned, and 1.5 million of YOUR people were killed or forced out of their country, what would you term the situation?

Put your biases aside and stop being so damn ignorant. I don't understand why Turks can't tuck tail, admit what they did, and move on. That's the FIRST step in improving relations. Why is it so hard? There will never be peace in that part of the world as long as this hard-headed, ignorant, and egotistical behavior continues. It amazes me that the Armenian genocide is still denied today. It's disgusting.

Problems can't be solved if denial is in the mix. Turks are denying something that was done to the people of Armenia in 1915...you think Armenians are just going to forget about it an move on? You expect them to hold hands if a real apology isn't made? That's absurd and unrealistic.

by AnaKasparian on 04/07/2009 06:47:16 PM EST

sorry (none / 0)

I'm sorry if I came off as mean. I just wanted to say that even though that is what I think I might be wrong. I dont have 100% of the facts and it should be up to historians and despite what the decision that emerges about it I think that Turkey and Armenia should have no reason to have a healthy relationship when the Azerbaijan problem is solved. Obama touched on this issue and I think that since Obama has brought more trust in America to Turkey that we will follow his advice better. It just annoys me that despite what has or what may have happened both sides are having trouble moving on. Personally I wouldn't mind Turkey recognizing as a genocide. Even though it might make some of my countrymen angry it would be a good example on how modern Turkey is completely different from the mentality and mind set of the Ottoman Empire.

 

by ugur90 on 04/07/2009 06:58:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thank you (none / 0)
Voices like yours must be heard. I agree with you, the occupation of Karabakh is illegal under international law:

United Nations Resolutions 822,853,973 and 884 are calling Armenian Occupation of Karabakh illegal.

http://daccessdds.un.org/do c/UNDOC/GEN/N93/247/71/IMG/ N9324771.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/do c/UNDOC/GEN/N93/428/34/IMG/ N9342834.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/do c/UNDOC/GEN/N93/557/41/PDF/ N9355741.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/do c/UNDOC/GEN/N93/631/20/PDF/ N9363120.pdf?OpenElement

With regards to events of 1915, despite the efforts of Armenian Diaspora there is no consensus among historians whether it was genocide or not. In fact the majority of historians who specialized in Ottoman History and had access to Ottoman archives believe there is not enough eveidence to support a genocide claim. Prominent historians such as Bernand Lewis and Justin McCarthy are obvious examples.

I disagree with one thing though. Turkey should not recognize the genocide claims. Not until the consensus among the historians and not politicians is reached or alternatively a verdict is made by the International Court of Justice. None of which seem to happen in the near future.

Ana's position is understandable. Growing up Armenian and being influence by family and friends plays an enourmous role here. Therefore we should not expect any other reaction from her. For bothers me more is Cenk's constant flip flopping on the issue. Firts, he was against the genocide terminology but unfortunately in his recent discussion with Ana in a post-game show he appeared to have changed his mind.

by roufat on 04/15/2009 10:33:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
WOW dude.. (none / 0)
Wow dude...So your saying that nations like Russia,Argentina,France,ITa ly, greece,germany, netharlands,poland,switzerl and,VATICAN,plus 42/50 states (http://www.armenian-genocid e.org/current_category.11/a ffirmation_list.html) and other nations
are wrong about the genocide not happening??? The only reason why England and USA havnt accepted the genocide is because of politics (usa has nukes lodged in turkey)...The only reason why so many other nations have not accepted the fact is that the turkish lobby in those states have won their respective congresses over (I.e. Denmark,bulgaria).....Besid es that, a lot of history books have at least some mention of a type of massacre of at least 300k-1.5 million people ....So they are wrong too?....All the pictures taken are also photoshoped right? Oh ya and the countless countless eyewitnesses are wrong too right (how come almost every Armenian Family's grandparents/great-grandpar ents have a story on how they were affected/or escaped from the genocide )....Oh ya and you know Armenians being spread throughout the world has no correlation to the genocide right?....And on the Karabagh issue: You know Stalin just down right handed karabagh to Azerbaijan right?....There were many armenians living there and he was just like, oh ok Azbj. you guys get karabagh and nakhichevan while Armenians will get Zangezuer....You know nothing dude...

by goldenshots on 10/28/2009 12:47:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I made a mistake (none / 0)

I made a typo..instead of saying:

Turkey and Armenia should have no reason to have a healthy relationship when the Azerbaijan problem is solved.

I meant to say

Turkey and Armenia should have no reason not to have a healthy relationship when the Azerbaijan problem is solved.

 I go on Turkish news sites and there are some people who comment on news such as Turkey opening its borders to Armenia upcoming fall and some people really give ignorant comments such as: "What has our government come to?" It really angers me because it really is time we moved forward and forgot the past. I totally understand Ana's position. Things that happened in history affect the lives of families all over the world. Japanese Americans have grandfathers who died in internment camps during WW2. It really is horrific. But the real wonderful thing would be if both sides put aside their differences and forgot the past.

by ugur90 on 04/20/2009 06:52:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Liberal Leaders Don't Deny The Armenian Genocide!! (none / 0)
I am an Armenian American who doesn’t care about Nationalism. I believe we have more pressing issues than a 95-year old Genocide.
 
BUT!!! I have Not heard ANY of the Liberal Leaders deny the Armenian Genocide! From Chomsky to Robert Fisk and everyone in between. No One!

Pacifica Radio has done program after program on this; from, "Democracy Now" to local programs. No one denies it.

I’m a Fan of Cenk, but I’m disappointed with this. You are a Liberal on every issue except this Cenk? All these people wrong? All these people who you value their opinion on everything else now all of a sudden they are all wrong on this?!

by RBLA818 on 01/23/2012 04:55:43 PM EST

Please Delete Fist Post. (none / 0)

by RBLA818 on 01/23/2012 04:56:42 PM EST

Turkish-Armenian Problem | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
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