04/09/2009 08:54:08 AM EST

Turkey has got no place in the E.U.

posted by grebrim

I guess I meet Sen Paul Kelley's definition of a racist, but I'm one of those Europeans who do not want Turkey to enter the E.U.
I don't even understand why that would be Obama's business, anyway.

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Why do American presidents keep on barging in E.U. affairs? And why are they so keen on seeing Turkey enter the E.U.? Either they want to harm Europe or they overlook the decisive fact: demography.

Turkey has one of the youngest populations in the entire World while European populations are very old (fewer kids, better medical system). Turkey's current population is 72 Million which would make it the E.U.'s biggest member after Germany (82 Million) and have more importance than France (66 Million) or Britain (62 Million). According to latest estimations, it would take them about 15 years to pass Germany. Is everybody still in favour of them entering? Well, then let's look at what that would mean in practice:

- As S.P. Kelley pointed out in the interview with Cenk, there is not much difference between Turkey's and Bulgaria's infrastructures. Well Sean, you've said it: Turkey is an extremely underdevelopped country and would need gargantuesque subsidies to acquire the same standards as the old E.U. countries, and that in a time where Europes' struggling with integrating Romania (only 20 Million) and Bulgaria (9 Million), two countries with a combined population that's less than half of Turkey's.

- I know there's some serious partying going on in Istanbul and it all looks very western, but the fact that Turkey is a very fragile democracy with a secular but extremely nationalistic Army that takes over the government frequently remains and cannot just be ignored.

- On the other hand, with fundamentalism gaining more and more ground and an islamic party in power, the army might not even be the biggest problem. Keep in mind that this government didn't want to accept the danish prime minister as Nato secretary because he defended the freedom of the danish press against islamic extremism. Is that a sign for subscribing to values other countries in Europe share? Is it racist to not want such backward people to dominate the E.U.?

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Turkey has got no place in the E.U. | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden)
Yes, you are a racist. (none / 0)
How are you NOT a racist when you are calliing an entire nation of people backward?  Who are you to decide what nations are allowed have access to community and progress while others are left to decay?  Racist indeed. 

by smcarey on 04/09/2009 10:29:36 AM EST

I didn't. (none / 0)
I was just talking about the islamist government, not the turkish nation. Of course I'm not to decide on who enters the EU, I'm just voicing my opinion here, undermined by facts and arguments. That's what this site is all about.

by grebrim on 04/09/2009 10:48:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
my thought on the subject (none / 0)
is that I dont think you really meant to post your opinions are undermined by facts.

That would mean your opinions where weakened by facts.

I dont understand the part about Turkey having to many young people .


by Chinese Democracy on 04/09/2009 11:47:21 AM EST

[ Parent ]
yeah (none / 0)
"Is it racist to not want such backward people to dominate the E.U.? "

you clearly said people, not government.


by MetalFalsetto on 04/09/2009 03:21:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
@Chinese Democracy + @MetalFalsetto (none / 0)
@Chinese: thanks, that's what I meant, I'm nott a native English speaker. As for the yopung people in Turkey, my point was that the country would very soon be the E.U.'s biggest member.

@MetalFalsetto: I meant the people in the government, that's why I wrote "such backward people", not "such a backward people"

by grebrim on 04/10/2009 02:11:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Re Turkey in the E.U. (none / 0)

Well, I don't think you're a racist because you don't want Turkey in the E.U. but somewhat culturally biased and certainly politically short-sighted.

It's not that we can't allow Turkey in the E.U. because of it's lacking infrastructure or some right-wing tendencies. There are many countries in the E.U. that have some kind of religion inspired parties, and the fact that they have a christian background doesn't necessarily mean they're better.

Sometimes when that issue comes up, I get the notion that its 1529 and the Osman Empire is threatening to conquer Vienna again and this time the Turks will win, if they are allowed in the E.U. So, IMO, Christian Europeans are backward, too.

The reason why Turkey has to be member of the E.U. is exactly to get a greater influence in that region and to avoid further radicalization. Turkey being afaik the most secular country with a mainly islamic population and in a historic dimension the greatest islamic empire ever would be a diplomatic advantage when dealing with the real fundies. So cooperation wherever possible is the key.

The demographic trend you point out for me is another reason for admission rather than denial. Do you really not want the biggest country in Europe 20-50 years from now in a tight economic, political and cultural relationship? Do you really rather want them to orient themselves towards fudamentalistic islamic countries (pun intended)?

by eborujion on 04/09/2009 11:35:25 AM EST

Sorry, (none / 0)
but I think you are the one to repeat short-sightet stereotypes.

"Sometimes when that issue comes up, I get the notion that its 1529 and the Osman Empire is threatening to conquer Vienna again and this time the Turks will win, if they are allowed in the E.U. So, IMO, Christian Europeans are backward, too."



Whenever one dares opposing Turkey's adhesion to the E.U, s.o. brings up that Vienna story. It has stopped being original decades ago.  

Some months ago, Turkish Prime Minster Erdogan held a speach in Cologne in front of Turkish immigrants or rather their sons and -to a lesser extent- daughters and claimed that "Immigration [into the German culture] is a crime". How would Amercians like a forgein statesman coming to their country and tell the immigrants not to adopt the American culture? Where's the point of that statement? If the Turkish are so European as you say, why would it be wrong for them to intergrate? Can you immagine such a statemant by a Portuguese prime minister talking to Portugese immigrants in France? He would say just the opposite!  


"The demographic trend you point out for me is another reason for admission rather than denial. Do you really not want the biggest country in Europe 20-50 years from now in a tight economic, political and cultural relationship? Do you really rather want them to orient themselves towards fudamentalistic islamic countries (pun intended)? "

So it's "do as we say or we become fundamentalists?" In the first place, I don't want Europe to yield to that kind of attempted extorsion that you hear regularily by Turkish pundits. On top of that, nearly 80% of their territory is in Asia. I hate to agree with Merkel, but her idea of a privileged partnership is the only thing you can do without having a E.U. that is paralysed by a chauvinistic, fraglie, islamist government.

by grebrim on 04/10/2009 02:30:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Europe for Europeans, wait wut? (none / 0)

"Whenever one dares opposing Turkey's adhesion to the E.U, s.o. brings up that Vienna story. It has stopped being original decades ago."

I didn't intend to be original. I just pointed out the appeal to emotion that often accompanies the opposition of Turkey's membership in the E.U. I do believe that is a real irrational fear that goes on in many minds.

"Some months ago, Turkish Prime Minster Erdogan held a speach in Cologne in front of Turkish immigrants or rather their sons and -to a lesser extent- daughters and claimed that "Immigration [into the German culture] is a crime". How would Amercians like a forgein statesman coming to their country and tell the immigrants not to adopt the American culture? Where's the point of that statement? If the Turkish are so European as you say, why would it be wrong for them to intergrate? [...]"

Well, he didn't say exactly that. He said "assimilation is a crime against humanity". Ok, some people may interpret that statement being anti-integration, but i don't. On the contrary he then goes on to stress the importance of (turkish) Immigrants learning the language of the country they are living in, which I find remarkable because that's still not the way many immigrants in Europe think. He just draws a line between (feeble) assimilation and (sensible) integration. I don't totally agree with him on that, but sounds rather progressive coming from an "islamist".

http://www.welt.de/meinung/ article1660510/Das_sagte_Mi nisterpraesident_Erdogan_in _Koeln.html

(You're german, right?)

As for the turkish being european, I didn't say that and the term "european" to me is artificial anyway. If you have to coin some "European trait brand" which nations do you include? Obviously the term isn't racial, and it's not cultural anymore, certainly it has a geographic connotation but very much it is a very recent politcal umbrella for E.U. purposes. Culturally it's all a continuum. "Panta rhei" as some smart ass put it. The main argument for Turkey not being European derives from mainland Turkey geographically being part of (artificially separated) Asia. But it's called Eurasia for a reason.

"So it's "do as we say or we become fundamentalists?" In the first place, I don't want Europe to yield to that kind of attempted extorsion that you hear regularily by Turkish pundits. On top of that, nearly 80% of their territory is in Asia. I hate to agree with Merkel, but her idea of a privileged partnership is the only thing you can do without having a E.U. that is paralysed by a chauvinistic, fraglie, islamist government. "

Territory: see above. I don't think it's a conscious act of extortion, but politics very much works the same way kindergarteners interact: "if they don't play with us, they're stupid and we go to the other buddies, even if they're somewhat creepy!"

Is that Christianistic (see, works with every religion) Merkel still being chancelorette ;)? I agree with you that at the moment "privileged partnership" is the way to go but with a strong option for membership as an incentive to implement "western style" (by that I mean humanistic) values and further approach Europe rather than the radical(izing) Middle East.

by eborujion on 04/10/2009 06:37:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]
race-culture-religion (none / 0)
Sean Paul did not say Bulgaria's infrastructure was the same as Turkey's.  He said that Turkey was more European then Bulgaria.  Lets be real.  All of this is racial.  There is no Asia apart from Europe and there is no Asia that is separated from Africa.  All are connected by land.  The true line of separation is some combination or race and culture/religion.  Darker so-called European nations tend to be the most racist in an effort to prove they are white. That is why you will not find somebody in Scandinavia showing up on national television in black-face.  The Turks are offended by a cartoon and expect the world to repent yet they have a news anchor showing up in black face insulting the President of the United States, and several hundred million people of African descent all over the face of the planet earth, not to mention all non-Africans who were equally offended.

by kylewis on 04/09/2009 11:54:52 AM EST

I dont see what race has got to do with it, (none / 0)
We know from modern genetics that there is no such thing as different human races, but even if you're backward enough think that there is, you cannot ignore tha fact that the turks are among the most mixed people ever. The point is culture: as a speech community, the people in Turkey are influenced by what people say on TV, write in newspapers, what their politicians say and what children are told by their parents. 

by grebrim on 04/10/2009 02:37:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Turkey does have a place in the EU (none / 0)
>I guess I meet Sen Paul Kelley's definition of a racist,

then Paul Kelley would be wrong, based on the reasons you gave, it would be unfair to call you a racist

>I don't even understand why that would be Obama's >business, anyway.

I agree, American leaders need to stop getting in the middle, although if you don't want Turkey in the EU, that's one of the best guarantees that it won't get in (so you should welcome Obama butting in) Especially since the US almost never wants to give any of it's sovereignty to a supranational body of government.

it's like other countries saying that the US should allow Mexico to become a US state

>Either they want to harm Europe or they overlook >the decisive fact: demography

I think it's
a. payoff for Turkey's support to the US
b. they would increase their influence on EU affairs through another strong allie. Basically what we also saw happening when Eastern-European countries joined, these new democracies tend to have almost no critical reflex when it comes to the US (!!!not saying Turkey is a new democracy)

The reasons why a part of the people on the right and left don't want Turkey in the EU is divers: ranging from outright racism to fear of islam to demographic reasons which affect job security, etc ....

Now, I think Turkey has a place within the EU, do I have reservations, yes, the last few years I've seen some things I don't like the increase of islam schools, ... (now I've seen similar religious tendencies in Hungary, but they're only 10 million)

Turkey has a strong tradition of secularism, one of the reasons I do trust them and want them in the EU, I'm just hoping the Turks themselves don't forget this.

Of course a lot has to do with the current political make-up: after conservative Poland has joined the EU, the conservatists have gained much more leverage in the EU Parliament, so having another huge block of Turkish AKP conservatists join is not something I'm looking forward to, if the CHP would become the majority party again I would like it much more of course :-)

>Turkey's current population is 72 Million which would >make it the E.U.'s biggest member after Germany (82 >Million) and have more importance than France (66 >Million) or Britain (62 Million). According to latest >estimations, it would take them about 15 years to pass >Germany

see this is not a racist argument, it's a strategic/power one and it's understandable why Germany, France and UK don't want to see their influence diminish

>the fact that Turkey is a very fragile democracy with a >secular but extremely nationalistic Army that takes over >the government frequently remains and cannot just be >ignored

I don't think Turkey has a fragile democracy, they do have an Army that is very defensive of threats to secular nature of the country (true sometimes they those threats seem a bit too doubtful).
This is where a  differ with most of my leftist friends, I actually have no problem with the army defending certain foundations of the state, I would be happy if the army intervened if a religious party would try to transform the country into a religous state.

Anno 2009, these interventions can't keep happening, certainly not when Turkey joins the EU.

>Keep in mind that this government didn't want to >accept the danish prime minister as Nato secretary >because he defended the freedom of the danish press >against islamic extremism.

as much as I distrust Erdogan, I found it weird that he reacted to forceful, but ugur90 gave an explanation about this that made sense (http://www.theyoungturks.co m/story/2009/4/7/01327/9841 3/Diary/Rasmussen-on-Danish -Cartoon-and-Muslim-Reactio n): seems it might be because Denmark houses Roj TV, which is affiliated with PKK

I feel that with Turkey in the EU we will be able to built a new and better future for the whole Mediterranean. For this to work however, I believe the influence of religion needs to keep diminishing in the current EU, Turkey, North-Africa, ... so we can all (in public) start having a beer, wine or whatever in the nice Mediterranean sun.

And for those on the right concerned with illegal immigration, if we bring the whole Mediterranean world together, make it more prosperous, Europe's borders (not saying North-Africa will be part of Europe, more like a buffer) won't be the Mediterranea Sea, but they will extend 1000km within Africa. They're doing it already in Lybia, which gets a 10 billion (over 5 years I think) EU investm ent for building roads, hospitals, schools, etc... and in exchange the EU gets a stable oil supply source and the Lybians will be stopping illegal immigrants at their borders.

by callisto on 04/09/2009 12:16:21 PM EST

great comment callisto (none / 0)
Nice job, I don't think anything needs to be added.

y

by chrisandyasemin on 04/09/2009 12:58:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Excellent points, but: (none / 0)
"Turkey has a strong tradition of secularism, one of the reasons I do trust them and want them in the EU, I'm just hoping the Turks themselves don't forget this."

Well, so did Iran before the mullahs. And don't forget that their secularism is backed by an army that is allways willing to do a putsch whenever they see kemalist values in danger.

"This is where a  differ with most of my leftist friends, I actually have no problem with the army defending certain foundations of the state, I would be happy if the army intervened if a religious party would try to transform the country into a religous state."

That would no longer be the enlightenment secularism that is now rooted in Europe, but some kind of a very special turkish authoritarian nationalism. I kinda agree with your leftist friends here, but I still would like them to see the dangers of an ever growing extremism more clearly.

"This is where a  differ with most of my leftist friends, I actually have no problem with the army defending certain foundations of the state, I would be happy if the army intervened if a religious party would try to transform the country into a religous state."

You've mentioned the case of Poland yourself. I don't see how a turkish adhesion to the E.U. would help to fight extremism, it would just give fundamentalists a wedge to Europenan politics (see Erdogan's statement on Immigration mentioned above)

by grebrim on 04/10/2009 02:51:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Never used "extremists" (none / 0)
>Well, so did Iran before the mullahs.

true, but it didn't have a history of democratic rule +  let's not forget that this was also a result of disastrous CIA policies

>And don't forget that their secularism is backed by an >army that is allways willing to do a putsch whenever >they see kemalist values in danger

that's true, this is something that needs to change

>That would no longer be the enlightenment secularism >that is now rooted in Europe,

correct, but if we're honest, it hasn't been so long since we kicked the influence of the church to the curb (probably WWII was a turning point for Western-Europe), remember it was Zapatero a few years back who finally draw the final line for the Spanish Catholic Church. Of course, this is more of the end stage and not what we would be dealing with in a religious state. (I wish the US would follow Spain in curbing the influence of churches on policy)

>but some kind of a very special turkish authoritarian >nationalism.

it's special alright, but Turkey is in a special place and I think we should help them out of this special place.
If we keep giving them the cold shoulder, we can't blaim them for going to a place where most muslim countries are.

>I kinda agree with your leftist friends here, but I still >would like them to see the dangers of an ever growing >extremism more clearly

oh no, they would say Turkey can't join because the army intervenes

Like I said in my post that growing extremism or more religiousness in Turkey's case is probably the main thing we have to fix, but I'm not giving up on Turkey and I think we should support them

>You've mentioned the case of Poland yourself. I don't >see how a turkish adhesion to the E.U. would help to >fight extremism,

wow wow, for my atheist brain the Polish religiousness is "extreme", but they are not extremists (they're "normal" in American standards:-), neither are the Turks, I said conservative.

I also never said Turkish entrance in the EU would help fight extremism (I think someone else might have made the point).

>it would just give fundamentalists a wedge to >Europenan politics (see Erdogan's statement on >Immigration mentioned above)

again, I would call him a conservative, if you think he's a fundamentalist fine, but what would you call the Mullahs then?

A month earlier Erdogan also did the same in Belgium, in front of 15.000 Turks he said to the Turkish immigrants not to loose their identity, but at the same time to integrate in the society they live in "never oppose intergration", followed by "integration makes one happy" At the beginning they played both Turkish and Belgian national songs. Look I have no complaints with that.
I don't trust Erdogan, but at the same time I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt to do what he says. If you only deal with people you trust from the beginning, you'll get nothing done and France and Germany would probably had another war over the last 60 years :)

by callisto on 04/10/2009 08:56:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Turkey can join later (none / 1)

Obviously I'm from Germany, and here's what I think about it:

Turkey should be able to join the EU, but not right now. It's a bit unfair to Turkey, but the EU really needs a break before its next expansion. The administration of the EU as it is is very complicated, and further members would make it even more difficult to come to important decisions. Particularly regardingEurope's common foreign and security policy, most decisions have to be unanimous, so we're pretty much tied up there already. When and if the contract of Lisbon will be signed and ratified by all members, this will change. Until then, there can be no expansion.

Anyway, Turkey had been promised the opportunity to join a long time ago, under certain conditions, and most of those conditions they have met, that's why it's a little unfair to them. 

As concerns Turkey not being a part of Europe, I don't quite agree with that. Turkey has played a role in European politics for hundreds of years, and used to spread over much of the Balkans. It's a close call though, and beyond Turkey is where I would draw the line.

It's also okay for the U.S. to push Europe a little. It's obviously in America's strategic interest, but they'll have to accept whatever decision the EU eventually makes.

Bottom line: Turkey is a part of Europe (and Asia), and as soon as they meet all the usual conditions, and the treaty of Lisbon is signed, they should be able to join. 

 

by OldGerman on 04/09/2009 03:24:18 PM EST

Time frame (none / 0)
Of course Turkey cannot join the E.U. tomorrow morning. Years (maybe 10-20) will pass until that can and will happpen. But until then, the E.U. and NATO (respectively the successor-organisation after the U.S. military collapses) shall seek ever closer cooperation with Turkey (plus syria and israel for that matter).

by eborujion on 04/09/2009 04:01:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Turkey has got no place in the E.U. | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden)
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