Has America Already Lost on the Torture Issue?

I wonder now, as I watch the issue of whether or not we should torture being debated in the media as if it is a legitimate debate, have we already lost the battle on the issue of torture? If America is a nation that debates whether or not to torture, and where a substantial percentage of Americans back torture, have we established the moral baseline of our nation already, making it somewhat irrelevant what the current administration's policies are, or whether we prosecute anyone for torture?

For the past several weeks, as more and more details about torture under the Bush Administration have come to light, I've been arguing strenuously that it is essential to our dignity as a nation that we prosecute at least Jay Bybee and John Yoo to send a message to the world that we are a nation of laws that has an ethical and moral compass, if an imperfect one.  I believed, literally until the last few days, that the idea that something of the American ideal would die if we allowed torture to go unpunished.  But now my view is shifted: I believe that something of the American ideal is already dead.

I'm watching now as CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News (along with the newspapers and the online world) debate the legitimacy and morality of torture.  Now we are hardly debating whether or not to prosecute the torturers and torture enablers. The debate has now shifted to whether torture is right and whether torture works.  I'm hearing American voices, in large number, proudly and passionately defending torture as a justified and moral course.  These voices may ultimately be the minority, but at a certain point it doesn't matter.  If a nation is so closely divided on such a basic issue of human rights and morality, it's not really relevant who is the majority and who is the minority.  If 40% of the members of a society think cannibalism is ok, the 60% are going to be in trouble.

I feel certain now, with Obama's very discouraging decision today to bury the detainee abuse photos and continue the Bush cover-up, that this administration lacks the political will to pursue meaningful prosecutions.  But even if they prove me wrong on that front, will it matter?  Torture is not only about the basic ethical and human rights issues.  It is about the message we send to the rest of the world about who we are and what we represent.  The world is seeing who we are RIGHT NOW, on our cable news, in our newspapers, on our blogs. They are seeing a nation that can't come near reaching a consensus on whether or not to torture.  Even so-called moderates like Harold Ford are coming out for torture.

So at this point, even if we do prosecute Bybee and Yoo, or even Cheney, such prosecutions will take place in a country bitterly divided over the issue.  And if there is a healthy debate about it now, you can rest assured that if there were to be even the smallest terrorist attack inside the US, or even a truly credible threat of one, suddenly the 40% or so that think torture is ok would swell to 70% or more, and Gumby Obama would bend to the pressure and reauthorize torture under some new euphemistic name.  This is what America has become, and it makes me sick to my stomach that this is what has happened to this once-great country.  It's one thing to debate tax policy, and health care policy, and regulatory policy.  But like cannibalism, and rape, and murder, a civilized country cannot even have a DEBATE about whether torture is acceptable.  So instead of debating WHICH torturers to punish and HOW SEVERE the punishments should be, we are instead debating whether or not torture is perfectly fine, and it tells the world that America is an ethically and morally bankrupt society. 

To quote Denzel Washington's Anthony Hubbard from the terribly underrated and prophetic film, The Siege, "If you torture him, General, then everything that we've fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they've won.  They've already won."

< Libs sure are dumb | Boycott Rockstar Energy Drink, created by Michael Savage >
 Display:

who said something very similar. You can never go back. The US is a society that tortures. It's lost its reputation for human rights. Even if we had remorse, it would take many years for the world to trust us.

But this city on a hill idea have been a sham all along. We started out on native Americans, then brought slaves, then put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps, then committed war crimes in WWII in Japan and Germany (that weren't recognized as such because the allies won, see Robert McNamara in "Fog of War"), and on and on.

We think a lot of ourselves but we've just been in deep self delusion.

by toosinbeymen on 05/13/2009 06:34:45 PM EST

I think there is a bit of a difference though in that, abhorrent as the treatment of Native Americans and slaves was, and what we may have done in WWII, those things were more par for the course around the world at the time.  Doesn't make it right, or justifiable, but those behaviors were commonplace worldwide, in both Western nations and the third world.  A key difference with torture is that we are not practicing an abhorrent practice that is globally accepted for the times, we are going BACKWARD 60+ years to practices that most of the world has rejected decades ago.  So while I think America has never been perfect, and the idea of American exceptionalism is often overplayed and becomes a cloak for naked nationalism, I think America has had some uniquely good qualities that we're now taking huge steps away from.

by mdavidboyd on 05/13/2009 06:48:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
>the idea of American exceptionalism is often overplayed >and becomes a cloak for naked nationalism

but once enough people recognize this, the quicker this can be rectified and truely begin living up to the idea


by callisto on 05/13/2009 07:10:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]

proves that America is just like everyone else and proves my point. Our cherished notion that we are special is just justification for jingoism.

I agree that we've now gone much further and regressed perhaps to the dark ages or at least before the concept of cruel and unusual punishment and the English Bill of Rights of 1689, the English Treason Act of 1790 and its revision of 1814. Up until that time prisoners could be hanged, drawn and quartered for certain crimes.

IMHO, much of our new acceptance of torture has more to do with punishment. Sure they wanted information but waterboarding 183 times in a month sounds more like punishment to me.

The next question: how long will it be before torture is routine in jails, prisons and other correctional facilities. The tazor is being used more and more. Think of the power of torture to "correct" someone's behavior.

by toosinbeymen on 05/14/2009 03:53:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yeah, no doubt about it, we have already sold our American soul to the devil. The right wing conservatives have done an amazing job at destroying what America has stood for, and the sackless Dems allowed them to do it with virtually no obstruction.

Im shocked that we are still debating if torture is legal, if prosecutions should go forward, if the bush administration did anything illegal, if its ok for politicians to ignore court subpoenas, its ok to ignore the constitution so blatantly.

This is the beginning of the end for America as we know and loved. Its a sad reality. What we turn into out of all this is yet to be seen, but its not going to be good. It may sound mellow dramatic, but we are a divided country with polarized opinions. Those ARE the seeds to something really bad coming in this decade.

by Smokin on 05/13/2009 06:53:29 PM EST

Redemption is always possible, the question is if the US will loose a generation or maybe more before they have the courage and decency to own up to what's been happening these last 8 years.

People are forgiving, but you need to apologize before that will happen.
The great thing about apologizing is that it becomes easier if you apply justice and proove that you mean what you declare.

Everybody fucks up, every country fucks up, it's what you do afterwards that matters, greatness is demonstrated if
1. you rectify what's gone wrong
2. you learn from it
3. you prosecute the guilty aka apply justice
4. you apologize to the victims

What makes it infuriating in the US' case is that when the US fucks up, it doesn't keep quiet for a while like most countries do or apologize like a great country should do, no, it takes out a megaphone and starts shouting how great, pure and the best it is, how it (and only it) stands for all that's good in the world, although it just disprooved it by it's earlier actions/crimes.

I really hope talking heads on TV will can the "America is the last great hope for humanity"-line, because if that's true under these circumstances, humanity is truely and deeply fucked and ... lost.

Even if Obama turns the economy around, sets up the greatest health care system EVER, ... he'll never be a great leader as long as he doesn't address the crimes that have been commited under the previous administration.

>terribly underrated and prophetic film, The Siege

loved that movie from the moment it came out, it truely was prophetic. Hated it when people said it was racist against muslims (because of scenes of muslims locked up), where they even watching the same movie? I think Bush saw that movie and thought Bruce Willis is right.


I truely hope Obama starts leading, eventhough a big part of the population isn't behind him on the issue. Great leaders are ahead of the majority or a big part of the population, people like FDR, Churchill, Ataturk & Robert Schuman in the previous century.

by callisto on 05/13/2009 07:02:36 PM EST

"This is the United States!  WE DO NOT FUCKING TORTURE!" -  Shepard Smith

     I think the Obama administration is afraid to set a precedent.  Investigating the previous administration has long been a de facto no-no in American politics.  We already complain about presidents being on a "perpetual campaign" through their first term.  Just think how it would be if they also spent much of their first term investigating whether there was any wrong doing by the previous administration.  I think we missed the boat by not investigating when Bush was President.  Now they can frame it as sour grapes retribution, or say we're trying to distract from the real issues if and when we do investigate.  So I still believe there should be a full and thorough investigation, I just think it will be politically dificult.

     I for one am completely sick of these stupid arguments that the torture proponents put up about needing information fast because lives are on the line (what I call Jack Bauer scenarios).  The real world is not like it is on 24.

We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.

by aidbo on 05/13/2009 07:14:51 PM EST

agreeing with you all throughout this thread, until your last line

>The Commander-In-Chief cannot be prosecuted >for fighting the enemy.

Bush no longer is the Commander In Chief and as we've seen throughout history, former Commanders In Chief/Leaders/even Emperors get prosecuted for this (especially when the outcome wasn't all that great).

In a way Bush should welcome this :-) , giving him some gravitas because he'll be in a list with people like Napoleon Bonaparte.

Although both men came to power in a coup d’état, waged war gainst countries that didn't attack them and tried to install some kind of new order in those places (Napoleon was successful with his Napoleonic Code), the comparison stops there, luckily :-)

by callisto on 05/14/2009 08:18:51 AM EST

America lost its credibility no matter how you put it and that's the reality of last 8 years. With insane foreign politics and all outcome with it.  It became clear that US is not what it has been promoting. Unfortunetly, it's a sad  part of all this. There has been a sense once that American principles were truly an awesome thing but situation quickly reversed over the years which proves that history repeats itself over and over again. 8 years of Bush just confirmed that even "democracy" like America is not perfect on top of american geopolitical agendas like oil and influence. America just gave away a biggest lie that it will bring democracy and freedom to the "oppressed" world and  this is hurting truly the idea of free society. It's just pure geopilitical agenda and that's what it is.


by Ryskeldi Satke on 05/14/2009 12:21:23 PM EST

 Display: