05/04/2009 03:51:24 PM EST

McGovern sees history repeating (as do I)

posted by MedfordTim


Another voice asking "WTF is Obama DOING in Afghanistan? Didn't Vietnam teach us anything?"

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Nice to know McGovern and I are still on the same wavelength...
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McGovern sees history repeating (as do I) | 26 comments (26 topical, 7 hidden)
Um... (3.50 / 2)
So what was all the complaints about us going to war with Iraq when Afghanistan was the real war?  Ok... look... I agree that had we stuck with Afghanistan we'd be simply working on rebuilding and the Taliban would be insignificant and Bin Laden probably would have been captured now.  But what... now we should leave Afghanistan?  I understand that this is one cluster fuck now... but that is because we totally fucked it up with our ADD president leading an ADD nation.  Now we need to do what we should have done in 2001/2002 and finish this fucking job.  Iraq was stupid, but we aren't done until Bin Laden is captured and either dead or on trial.  Also, lets remember Charlie Wilson's war and remember that the rebuilding effort is where we really create an ally.  I do believe that if we shit in someone elses house... we clean it up.  We were bombed... and those morons who woke the sleeping giant, dun f'ed up and are going to face the consequences.  The only reason this will be anything like Vietnam is because Bush was an idiot and got distracted by the pretty shiny toy.  It is now time to finish this job.  We get Bin Laden... we help Afghanistan to empower itself and then we never do this shit again.  It will take A LONG time, but buckle down boys... it is going to be a bumpy ride.  I agreed with ya and you had my full support on Iraq, but on this one... this is the whole reason we started any of this.  This one we have to stay focused on.  We have to get this one done.

by Das Gimp on 05/04/2009 06:12:09 PM EST

An old saying applies here (none / 1)
"When you find out the hole you're digging is in the wrong place, stop digging." Yes, we need to get the fuck out of Afghanistan. Yesterday.

by MedfordTim on 05/04/2009 07:14:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I follow that. (4.00 / 3)
Obviously Iraq was a mistake and every day we stay there is another day Americans die for no reason at all. OTOH, Afghanistan was/is actually the focal point of the Taliban and their support group - al Quada. Eliminating that threat would be a good thing. Developing Afghanistan's infrastructure would give them a reason not to resume business as usual when we do leave.

"People who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them." LL

by Robrob on 05/04/2009 09:16:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes and no (none / 1)

Limited military action with the initial goal of going after Bin Laden & Co? Sure.

But we're not going to eliminate the threat of terrorism with guns and air strikes. We need to help modernize their culture, and build schools and hospitals, etc. Kinda like what we should have done in the first place as J. Kim and Cenk discussed last week regarding Charlie Wilson's War.

by ihavenobias on 05/04/2009 09:23:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
True (none / 1)

Hearts and minds.

It's a lot easier to convince young Jaweed not to join the Taliban if he has running water, a few paved roads and electricity more than five hours a day.

"People who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them." LL

by Robrob on 05/04/2009 10:31:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Good thing (1.00 / 4)

You weren't around n WW2

 

You'd be the guy telling everybody to get out when the Philippines fell, when the Americans wee decimated at Kasserine in Africa, and during the Battle of the Bulge

by Perry on 05/04/2009 07:39:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Stick to things you know about (1.00 / 2)
...although that will admittedly leave you with a lot of time on your hands...maybe you should take up pottery...you could specialize in the cracked variety...

by MedfordTim on 05/04/2009 09:05:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Care to elaborate? (2.50 / 2)
What is it I'm wrong about?

by Perry on 05/04/2009 09:43:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hello, Mr. Lincoln (none / 1)

This is Major MedfordTim, reporting

 

As you're aware, our Union armies suffered a demoralizing defeat at the battle of Bull Run. It is my opinion that When you find out the hole you're digging is in the wrong place, stop digging...the civil war is the new Vietnam mr. president! I suggest we withdraw our forces and immediately recognize the Confederate States of America!

 

lolwut 

by Perry on 05/05/2009 03:19:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Hello, mr. Washington (none / 0)

Private MedfordTim, reporting

 

Me and the boys think the rations here at Vally Forge sort of suck. Plus my shoes fell apart the other day and my toes are getting frostbitten.

It's my opinion that this whole "Life, liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" business is turning into another Vietnam. Let's just pay the taxes, huh?

 

lolwut 

by Perry on 05/05/2009 03:33:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Weak argument (3.50 / 2)
His argument is kind of weak as he just states how Johnson could not succeed in both Vietnam and in fighting povery and hopes Obama won't fall into the same trap with Afghanistan. He didn't seem to mention why Afghanistan was the new Vietnam except for mentioning there are warlords there.

by nmaks on 05/04/2009 09:39:41 PM EST

one last thing (1.50 / 2)
Plus George McGovern is a loser... who cares what he has to say.  LoL!  (j/k)

by Das Gimp on 05/04/2009 06:16:22 PM EST

I have to admit (none / 1)
I AM worried this will become the new Vietnam.

by ihavenobias on 05/04/2009 04:14:24 PM EST

More and more agreeing (none / 0)

I'm torn on this one, but I basically have to agree with you now.  It's true that the root of the problem was in Afghanistan, but I don't think it is anymore.   It's all migrated into Pakistan.   There is a timing to these things, and the time to drive the stake through the heart was when we had the bastards at Tora Bora.   The reasoning by the neocons for leaving Bin Laden to the Northern Alliance has never been made clear and what they did say didn't make sense.  I don't know if we'll ever know for sure.   Maybe they wanted to hold back assets that they knew they were going to need in Iraq.  Maybe they were operating under the notion that the Northern Alliance would kill Bin Laden and they could turn the whole mess in Afghanistan over to them and be free for their Iraqi adventure.  That scheme sounds just simple-minded enough to be a plan the neocons would come up with.   Maybe they were worried that if Bin Laden was killed the public would balk at invading Iraq and so let him go deliberately.   This makes a lot of sense because it would be damned tough to get the American public interested in exacting revenge for 9/11 against Saddam when the actual ringleader was already dead.  Or maybe it was just a kind of a neocon ADD, an inability to focus for very long on one problem.

Whatever the reason, even after it was made clear that Bin Laden had escaped we had an opportunity to pursue him at that time into Pakistan.   Sure, they would have kicked up an official fuss, but everyone in the Middle East was expecting us to exact revenge for what happened on 9/11.  After all the tough talk about chasing Bin Laden to the ends of the earth we stopped at the Pakistan border like a bull that had run into an electric fence.  No wonder Iran is pursuing nukes.   We demonstrated clearly that we will halt at the border of a country that possesses the bomb.  It was a dangerous show of weakness.  And look where it got us, the cancer has metastasized in Pakistan and is edging toward where the bombs are stored.

For all that, though, the big question is, what do you do now?  How do you pick up a trail that's 5 years cold?   We've pissed away any credibility in the middle east with the fiasco in Iraq (never mind any sympathy over 9/11).  We're broke and we've got huge problems here that we must concentrate on.   We may be moving over the edge of an abyss called peak oil, beyond which economic growth is a forlorn hope.

No, the more it goes the more I think that that ship has sailed.   We're going to have to play the game that Bush left us and he fucked the hand up badly.

by bfaul on 05/06/2009 02:51:44 PM EST

McGovern sees history repeating (as do I) | 26 comments (26 topical, 7 hidden)
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