06/27/2009 09:10:54 PM EST

House passes biggest mistake in US history!!!

posted by SVX77

House passes biggest mistake in US history!!! Can 1 of you give me an example where this has worked? Why is Australia backpedaling and stopping the same program. How well did it help out Spain. Please don’t be the sheepeople that the Republicans were for the last 8 yrs lets have some common sense. What do ya say?


 

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Isn’t it funny that on the day of and the days leading up to this historic vote on the largest tax increase in American history, all you see on the news (FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc…) is Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett. Yes they will be missed but come on people lets get our heads out of our ***.
This is a 1300 page bill that not one person in the House of Reps has read. There was a 300 page amendment put in at 3am Fri morning. I urge you to call and email your senator to vote NO on this bill. It has nothing to do with the climate and is all about taxing business so that the can pass the tax on to the middle class. If people knew how much Al Gore and others in Congress stand to profit from this legislation they would call immediately. 
If you want any proof on the fraud of so-called global warming read the book, Red Hot Lies by Christopher C. Horner. This is not a political book, just one based on facts and supported by all the leading weather and climate scientists around the World. I believe whole-heartily on recycling to preserve our forests, wildlife and the natural resources but the fear and panic largely perpetrated upon the American people by Al Gore is only for profit, not out of concern.
When we start to tax these companies they will leave our country and go to countries like China and India and just put off the pollutants there. Whats the point other than to get the rich richer??!! ENRON tried to do this and we see how great they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=54qbSoH3G0U

< Michael Jackson did not try purposly to make himself white. | THANK YOU RONALD REAGAN... YOU FUCK UP!!!! >
 Display:
House passes biggest mistake in US history!!! | 56 comments (56 topical, 0 hidden)
Newsflash (5.00 / 2)

Isn’t it funny that on the day of and the days leading up to this historic vote on the largest tax increase in American history, all you see on the news (FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc…) is Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett. Yes they will be missed but come on people lets get our heads out of our ***.

Not really, what's funny is your half baked attempt to infer that there is some sort of "left wing conspiracy" orchestrated by the main stream liberal media. I suppose Micheal Moore , George Soros and Barabra Striesand snuck into his house and  killed him (Jackson) to get the bill passed.

Please , give the people here at TYT a little credit, we are a bit more sophisticated that that. Take it to World Net Daily.

When we start to tax these companies they will leave our country and go to countries like ChinaIndia and just put off the pollutants there. 

Were have you been for the last 30 years? They are leaving now. American corporations have been shipping jobs offshore since Reagan and his free trade policies. They will continue to leave regardless of the climate change bill passes or not. By the way, a large percentage of air pollution the west coast comes from China and the Far East.

Red Hot Lies by Christopher C. Horner. This is not a political book,just one based on facts and supported by all the leading weather and climate scientists around the World.

That statment is simply a lie. If your going to spam for a right wing climate change hoax hack and a conservative think tank I suggest you get your facts straight.

Christopher C. Horner . As an attorney, Horner has represented CEI, scientists, and Members of the U.S. Congress on matters of environmental policy in the federal courts including the Supreme Court. He has been a frequent contributor in the Washington Times, National Review Online

The Competitive Enterprise Institute is a public interest group dedicated to free enterprise and limited government. We believe that the best solutions come from people making their own choices in a free marketplace, rather than government intervention.

Everything Mr Horner writes is political. He works for CEI is a right wing ,libertarian leaning "think tank" and  "public interest" group.

Here is how they describe themselves  "dedicated to free enterprise and limited government. We believe that the best solutions come from people making their own choices in a free marketplace, rather than government intervention."

Now if you don't recognize that passage I suggest you go to the GOP website and read the platform for 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992 and so on.

But, you know that. That being said we can have a discussion on global warming or you can spam for 527. Your choice.

 One last point

ENRON tried to do this and we see how great they were. 

What exactly did ENRON do other than defraud their employees and a few million other people manipulating prices on deregulated electricty? Its not clear from your blog.

by MRFred on 06/27/2009 10:38:10 PM EST

couldn't have said it better (none / 0)

  Yes tax expenses are often passed off onto us but it offers a chance for companies to make a fortune.  If all the coal plants in the US are getting slapped with a big tax don't you think it would be in the best interest of someone to find a way to clean it up?

 Right now pollution costs a company very little so there is no need to invest in cleaning anything. Start taxing and you give them a reason to be for the first to find a way to clean their smoke up.

by mattish on 06/28/2009 10:17:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
On an unrelated note (none / 0)

Thom Hartmann sometimes talks about how right wing think tanks will pay people to work from home. What do they get paid to do? They get paid to post right wing talking points on various message boards.

I'd like to think that when they do this that they'd take the time to post some links to sources. Hell, even non-credible sources (Heritage Foundation, etc.) show they at least tried.

PS---The largest tax increase in American history on the middle/working class was courtesy of Reagan (see payroll tax).

by Tom Hanc on 06/27/2009 09:19:06 PM EST

Facts (none / 0)
"People with stronger party affiliation, conservative political views, and greater interest in politics proved more likely to click on articles with opposing views, according to the Ohio State study.

“It appears that people with these characteristics are more confident in their views and so they’re more inclined to at least take a quick look at the counterarguments,” Knobloch-Westerwick noted. ..."


Again where are the facts to support this bill??


by SVX77 on 06/27/2009 09:33:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I haven't said anything about the bill (none / 0)

I only noted that if someone is pushing conservative talking points on what is generally considered to be a center-progressive website, they should go out of their way to post something that is well sourced and well written.

by Tom Hanc on 06/27/2009 10:05:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're the positivist here. (none / 0)
You posted the article.  We're just wondering where your facts are.

by EveningStarNM on 06/28/2009 12:06:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
talk about a lack of facts (none / 0)
"It has nothing to do with the climate and is all about taxing business so that the can pass the tax on to the middle class."

Prove it

I have had enough of parroting right wing talking points.

Show me parts of the bill  that  support that supposition. I am assuming you have read it of course.

A conservative believes nothing should be done for the first time

by C D on 06/28/2009 02:35:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Outrageous (none / 1)
How dare you claim that Barack Obama is raising our taxes. Ninety five percent of us will be getting a sweet tax cut from the greatest president the universe has ever known. That's right, we're getting millions of green jobs subsidized to the hilt, universal cradle to grave health care and a tax cut. You can take it to the bank because Pres. Obama promised. And Obama would never break a promise. Right?

by Twba on 06/28/2009 04:52:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
at the risk of you posting Im a "tard" (none / 0)
I will post that yes the bill as written will cost a family 175 more a year.

The benefits could far outweigh that cost if the bill is not watered down even more.

Obama broke a promise?

You must be used to that after 8 years of supporting Bush right?

Your mindset is go after Obama at all costs on even the most inane things. It isnt working for the conservatives in the House and Senate. Why would you think it would work for you ?

And yet thats all  you do. GOTCHA! SO THERE!

Come up with something substantive

A conservative believes nothing should be done for the first time

by C D on 06/29/2009 02:52:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]
E F (none / 1)
You must be used to that after 8 years of supporting Bush right?

You've been reading my comments for years. You know I am not a Bush supporter. Nice try.

The benefits could far outweigh that cost if the bill is not watered down even more.

Nonsense. This crap and tax bullshit fails every reasonable cost benefit analysis.

by Twba on 06/29/2009 08:50:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Really? (none / 0)
Show us one of those cost-benefit analyses that you say cap-and-trade fails.  And please try to get one from a respected, non-partisan source instead of from one of your right-wing think tanks, okay?  If you've got one, I'm interested.  If not, then I don't want to waste any more of my time on this.

by EveningStarNM on 06/29/2009 10:11:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Be carefull! (5.00 / 2)

TWBA is " the smartest man on TYT" according to Ken.

Generally, TWBA is long on libertardican sound bites from Cato and Heritage and short on rational explanations.

Of course when it comes to climate change the first response is to deny there is problem and claim any discussion of global warming is unnecessarily alarmist. 

Once that fails, attack the messenger by claiming a liberal wacko environmentalist conspiracy.

The last line of attack is the old fall back; "free markets". Claim if there is a problem, the invisible hand of the free market will solve It (the problem). Thats why Libertarians are buying real estate in areas that will be oceanfront in the years to come. See, problem solved.

Some reading that will is sure to cheer you up after the death of MJ:

Ive got more...

by MRFred on 06/29/2009 12:31:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Just make sure Dave sees that list. (none / 0)
Your whole list.  Maybe it will shake his confidence in minimizing the problem a little bit.

And thanks for "libertardican".  I knew he was an libertarian of sorts (of the insane variety that thinks libertarian economics can actually work), but he mouths Republican talking points a lot.  I wasn't sure how to classify his views.

by EveningStarNM on 06/29/2009 07:04:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
cap and trade (none / 0)
I have read all these posts and no one is really adressing the real problems with waxman markey.  No one read it, it's gonna cost everyone more money, especially the poor, it WILL hurt industry commerce and transportation. If you think this bill is gonna help us i would love to hear of a recent government program that has helped us.  everytime the government steps in it screws up, rep. or dem.  Our government is soon going to run every bit of out industrial sector through legislation it passes.  besides, sorry to say it but the climate change thing is seeming to be debunked.  just another example of our government inserting themselves into EVERYTHING.

by nashvi11e on 07/04/2009 05:06:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Three points. (none / 0)
Point One

You say that "No one read it".  That is false.  It may be that no one person read all of it, but we don't need even one person to read all of it.  No one person has read all of the schematics for the space shuttle, either, but it flies.

However, lots of people have read the bill and have responsibilities for different parts of it.  They also collaborate with people who are responsible for other parts of the bill.  On complicated issues like this, there is no way that one person could understand all of the issues involved.  It's simply too complex.  But when we put our heads together, we can do marvelous things -- like build the most complex device in the world, the space shuttle.

This idea that every congressman should read all of every bill is unrealistic, unproductive, a waste of time, and and unnecessary red herring.

Point Two

Yes, we'll have to spend money to clean up the environment.  And lots of businesses will be formed and will hire employees to build the devices that we'll use to clean up the mess that we've created.  In addition, we'll be creating new jobs and businesses in green energy production industries.

The fact that we haven't paid all of the costs of our pollution to date is not a good thing, and it's not fair to measure previous expenses with future expenses.  Most of the costs of our brown industries were either pushed off onto the public and onto future generations in the form of diseases and death and lost land area and diminishing species and shrinking human habitat.  It's just too bad that future generations will have to pay to clean up the messes that we've created.  I just hope they'll have the money, because we've already borrowed not only their inheritance but also their income from them, and we have no intention of paying it back.

Point Three

A government program that has helped us: Roads.  Cancer research.  Agricultural research.  Free health care for poor children.  Public utilities of all kinds that always cost less than what private providers charge.  Public education.

The private sector cannot and would not provide those services on the scale that is needed.  We already know that's true just by looking at the distribution of broadband internet services.  There are places where you can't get it because it's not profitable for a private company to provide it even though it's profitable for society as a whole to connect rural areas.

Final Thoughts

Now, if you're one of those climate change deniers, then I've just wasted my time.  Such people don't care about facts and will listen to the right wing fringe rather than to mainstream science because they have some sort of mental disorder, or stand to lose lots of money because they're invested in brown industries and are too lazy to invest in green ones.

And if you're a libertarian, then I've similarly wasted my time.  Libertarians believe that the insane assumptions they have to make for their economic model actually might be true.  The fact that no one in the world has ever made a libertarian economic system work and that no country even trying libertarianism doesn't phase them in the least.

But if you're disappointed that the bill doesn't do enough, then you've got my sympathies.  It doesn't.  But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years, and we know that we're responsible for these acute changes to our climate.  We know that waiting to fix these problems will cost trillions upon trillions of dollars more, when, for instance, we have to build dikes to keep central Florida, among other places, from going under water.

Yes, the bill doesn't do enough.  But we've got to start somewhere, and we've got to start now.  Our children are counting on us.

by EveningStarNM on 07/05/2009 02:51:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
horrible analogy, the space shuttle!!!!! (none / 0)

Point one

are you seriously comparing writing complicated legislation that will affect the largest economy on earth to the engineers who designed the space shuttle!!!!!  that's a lame weak argument.  first off this legislation is going to cost the american taxpayer plenty of money, after i pay my 25 percent to the fed gov, 12 to SS, 9% sales tax, $110 a month to property tax, a road tax, what the heck, my kids don't need to eat.

do you seriously think that lawmakers don't have to read legislation?   Don't they owe it to us the american taxpayers to know what they are passing into law?  Its 1300 pages of BS and they didn't want people to go digging into it thats why it was rushed.

point two

hold on WE haven't paid all the cost of our pollution yet??????  WE? i haven't polluted.  i don't dump toxic chemicals, i don't own or run massive factories that pollute the air, and our industry now in this country is some of the cleanest in the world. The super duper federal gov't that is suppose to regulate pollution is also the single largest polluter in the country. And so now we will put limits on carbon dioxide production and that will fix it. This should work great.  so we are going to shoot our industry in the foot and leave the biggest polluters off the hook? INDIA, CHINA, THE MIDDLE EAST?  If we clean up our act and they don't what is it going to help? THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO COST OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS MONEY, NOT US.  They already have a massive competative advantage and now we are just putting the nail in the coffin for us industry.  So this is going to make jobs? What jobs?  Green power jobs? funded by the same BROKE gov't that you say has stolen our future inheritance? 

point three

Roads and infastructure are run at the state level, not a federal program.  As far as public programs go, cancer research, ok, we subsidize that, its not a gov't run program.  agricultural research?  we currently pay farm subsidies to farmers to NOT grow things, more than any other country.  and in fact without subsidies most american farmers would go broke, so our gov't program has just made them dependant. How has that helped us?  Free healthcare for kids?  are you just listing crap? you still haven't given me the ACTUAL GOVT PROGRAM.  are you refering to medicaid?  MEDICAID IS THE POSTER CHILD FOR FAILED GOVT PROGRAMS. if thats not what you were refering to that i don't know what your talking about.  As far as public education goes we have some of the worst in the modern world, so you think that is run well? Have you seen how we score worldwide?  how can you say public utilities charge less?  do companies compete to deliver water service where you live? how about electric.  did you shop around and see who would hook up to your house for less???? of course not.  so its not a valid point, it doesn't answer my question.  public utilities tend to be run well i agree.  but again its not a federal program.

my final thoughts

you can call me all the names you want but we are in our eleventh year of cooling according to a recent paper from the epa and even they have said that the lack of peer review in the global warming camp is problematic.  i guess im just an idiot because i tend to believe in science and actual hard data instead of a bunch of speculation and bad climate forecasting.  

Oh yes, capitalism doesn't work, the free market is a joke. The two largest economies on earth are free market, capitalist economies.  The UNITED STATES is moving rapidly twords a socialist economy and thats the problem here.  The government is making regulations that favor company A and hinder company B. I live in TN but i can't buy cheaper healthcare based out of GA.   Why? Because of government regulation thats why. The government chooses to bail out this company but not that one because of some buddies in the administration. You don't see a problem with this?  The free market works and it is proven to work.  We have a very high living standard in this country and its not because the government handed it to us.  What is your ideal ecenomic model? I'd love to hear it. 

by nashvi11e on 07/05/2009 05:09:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Let me see if I understand you correctly (none / 0)
People can't collaborate successfully on large, complicated projects about which no one person can have total knowledge because you think you're paying too much in taxes, right?

Sorry, but I was just too disappointed with the total lack of reasoning in your first paragraph to think that the rest of your post wasn't an equal waste of time.

If you can revise it to show that you have at least some familiarity with collaborative processes and management systems, then perhaps I'll consider reading more of what you have to say.

You might also consider that if we forced every legislator to read every word of these large, complicated bills rather than be able to delegate responsibilities for portions of them among themselves and their staffs, then they would get absolutely nothing done.

Please understand that what you propose would be hilarious if you weren't being sincere in your deep ignorance.

by EveningStarNM on 07/05/2009 06:54:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Care to wager? (none / 1)
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

I'll bet you're wrong. How much do you care to wager?

by Twba on 07/13/2009 08:33:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't get it. (none / 0)
Why do you keep waiting to comment in articles after they've dropped off the radar and disappeared into the shadows?  Sorry, but I have too many current conversations going on.  Besides, any reply would involve logic and science, things that you obviously don't understand.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 03:55:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Vacay (none / 1)
I was on vacation all last week.

My offer stands. Name your price and we'll set up a wager. You can contact me in twenty years to pay me.

by Twba on 07/13/2009 04:08:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're going to get hit by a truck... (none / 0)
...if you keep standing in the middle of that freeway.  But let's wait and see what happens.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 05:08:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're going to lose a wager (none / 1)
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

Let's set an amount and define "largely gone."

by Twba on 07/13/2009 05:21:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do you know anything about science? (none / 0)
Scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research and the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), shows the extent of sea-ice shrinkage has accelerated between 1979 to 2008 to a decline of 11.7% per decade.

The scientific community has a range of predictions concerning an ice-free Arctic Ocean in summer. Some say it could be as early as 2013 or as late as 2100.  NSIDC's projections fall somewhere in the lower half of this range. There is consensus and it is not if, but when.

http://nsidc.org/news/press /20081002_seaice_pressrelea se.html

I'm sorry that science is so inconvenient to your ideology, but,...

Well, actually I'm not at all sorry.  Your denial of these easily observable facts and fully justified projections just makes anything you have to say on the matter irrelevant.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 07:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do you know anything about wagering? (none / 2)
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

Name your price and define "largely gone."

If you're so confident that your prediction will come true, why are you so reluctant to back it up with a wager?

by Twba on 07/20/2009 02:27:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
zeroed out (none / 1)
If you're not going to accept the wager here, would you like me to make the offer in a fresh post so you can get more attention?

by Twba on 07/24/2009 04:15:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Wheelie (none / 1)
And please try to get one from a respected, non-partisan source...

You just ruled out all your sources, too.

by Twba on 07/01/2009 10:05:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That's a cop out. (none / 1)

by EveningStarNM on 07/01/2009 10:31:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
crapped out (none / 1)
My guess is not even peer reviewed studies will pass your test if their conclusions disagree with your assumptions. Right? I'm a little tired of climate nazis and their labeling their opponents deniers and traitors. Want to call me names for pointing out that the crap and tax legislation is all cost and no benefit? Knock yourself out.

by Twba on 07/04/2009 09:28:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That's the same cop out (none / 0)
but with more words in it.

And "tax legislation is all cost and no benefit" doesn't earn any respect either.  Taxes pay for roads, for instance, which some would argue is a significant benefit.  But if you think that roads are a waste of taxpayer's money, well, you have a right to your opinion.

by EveningStarNM on 07/04/2009 03:29:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If I were his employer... (none / 0)
I would want my money back.  And really, can you imagine...

     "So, what do you do for a living?"
"I troll liberal websites with weak conservative talking points."
     "Ah, is there a big market for that sort of thing?"
"You'd be surprised! Wanna blow this joint and go to my place?"
     "I have to check my dog's ass for worms, maybe some other time."

We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.

by aidbo on 06/27/2009 09:42:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Facts (none / 0)
Wow there were some great facts about the climate bill there  ;)

by SVX77 on 06/27/2009 09:45:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Read carefully (none / 0)
Because this is as far as I'm going to take this. I made no assertion about any facts. I was responding to ihavenobias's comment. I also didn't find any request in your post for any facts.  For the record, I don't think that my democratic congressman voted for this bill. He had a small article in one of our local newspapers saying he was against it because of the potential for "carbon swaps" much like the congressman in your video was concerned.

I see this is your first blog post and comment.  Welcome to the TYT forum.  We'll treat you with respect as long as you reciprocate.

Oh, and ;-)

By the way, to the regulars, how long has it been since Ken or one of his alternates commented?  I'm actually starting to worry about him.  I haven't noticed anything out of him since him and Eveningstar got in the fight.    

We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.

by aidbo on 06/27/2009 10:37:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He's taking a sabatical (3.33 / 2)

...taking a vacation Dealing with some family issues I think.

I suspect he's siting on the Texas plain somewhere feet up smoking a Cohiba and sipping a cold one.

 

by MRFred on 06/27/2009 10:44:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
His sockpuppets must have been gone a while (2.50 / 2)
Because somehow I've regained "trusted user" status.

"No, you are a paid blogger assigned to counter anyone that posts something negative about the government or Obama." by Mcamelyne II on 05/17/2011

by Robrob on 06/28/2009 12:13:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Drat! (2.50 / 2)
Do we have to start rating comments again?  It was nice not having to worry about that.  But I do hope you're wrong about who it is.

by EveningStarNM on 06/28/2009 12:50:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh no I don't think he's ken (none / 1)
I just happened to think of him.

We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.

by aidbo on 06/28/2009 01:01:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Definitely not Ken (3.33 / 2)

Tigers don't change there stripes.

Ken is a lot of things, being, for lack of a better term, illiterate, and barely lacking in writing skills isn't one of them. Ken will not purposely look like an idiot to get his message out.

These "bloggers" come and go. I suspect this "blogger"  will fade away like the rest of the what I call "issues" spammers. We had one who reposted McCain campaign releases.  We had one who posted "prolife" propaganda.

Such is life.

 

by MRFred on 06/28/2009 11:33:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Its nice to know (none / 1)
that looking like an idiot comes naturally to him

:)

A conservative believes nothing should be done for the first time

by C D on 06/28/2009 02:44:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Your so bad... (3.33 / 2)
but good catch ;)

by MRFred on 06/28/2009 04:59:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
you were right (none / 0)
all the credit to you, he did fade away

by birdboy1 on 07/13/2009 05:22:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Elbow from the sky... (none / 0)
Al Gore has something to say to you:

But btw: YOUR neo-con buddies made everything and anything about making money and getting power. So you should not be surprised that some entrepreneurs may want to profit while doing something for the right cause (even if it's not their motive). You talk about getting the rich richer, yeah, very good liberal talking point. So, what would prevent the rich from getting richer in your opinion?

And, what's more important: the republican answer to any problem seems to be tax cuts, so the obvious REAL solution must be the opposite: taxing bad behaviour. Yeah, so what if some companies leave the country to pollute elsewhere? What about not buying their products? What about lobbying against them, they are the real enemies of the state!

And another thing: global warming is accepted by pretty much the whole scientific community around the world, just some nutcases in the U.S. repudiate it's happening, coincidentally the country that produces the most pollutants and thus needs to restructure the most to adjust to the new conditions. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, someone will profit more, if that there is no regulation of industrial emissions?

Anyway, even if global warming was just an alarmist crackpot theory... Would that really make reducing air pollution a bad thing? Do your grand-children have any allergies or asthma?

by eborujion on 06/27/2009 11:39:13 PM EST

A Reliable Indicator (none / 0)
"...so the obvious REAL solution must be the opposite: taxing bad behaviour."

If the right-wing is pissed at us, then we're doing the right thing.

by EveningStarNM on 06/28/2009 12:41:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
you retard (none / 0)

http://www.generationim.com /about/team.html

so al gore isn't gonna make money off this!!!!!!

if al gore makes money i don't care but sit around and tell me that this guy has been doing it for 30 years and isn't going to make a dime.  your so full of shit.   ok and please answer me this.  if everyone who is scepticle of global warming is an alarmist that where is the HARD proof.  we have been COOLING for 11 years now.  I am a huge environmentalist but i also am a sceptic.  you folks want to reduce carbon dioxide which is not CARBON.  its like calling h2o hydrogen.  you guys lost me years ago

by nashvi11e on 07/04/2009 06:48:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Verbal climate change... (none / 0)
Listen, you clown... where did I say Gore would not make money from venturing in environment protection? I just linked a congressional debate about that issue. He states that he forwarded his profits to another organization and obviously that dumb lady senator could not prove otherwise. The way the dirt flinging republican PR machine works he would be in big trouble right now so I assume he speaks the truth. Anyway, I would not oppose his making money of this. If he does not break any laws, it's OK with me. What did you want to say with the link to the company in which Gore has some position? How does that contribute anything to the issue?


if everyone who is scepticle of global warming is an alarmist that where is the HARD proof.

??? Don't drink and post! Please repeat that in a comprehensible fashion and also tell me how that relates to anything in my previous post..

we have been COOLING for 11 years now

Proof? Links to publications, please, if you claim something that goes against most of the international scientific community. But: I also stated that it simply doesn't matter much to me, if global warming occurs like the scientific consensus predicts, cutting down on pollutants is a good idea in any case.

Carbon dioxide is called carbon in the public discussion for simplification so that ass-clowns like you and the RW politicians can understand what is talked about without being confused by too complicated words. Your analogy doesn't make sense, as there is already an easy term for H2O: water... and it also would be called oxygen or how many carbon atoms are there in carbondioxide?

What makes you an environmentalist then if you are not against polluting the air? Are you a tree hugger? Or a sheep fucker?

Btw: with you starting your post "you retard" I did not feel any obligation to remain polite.

by eborujion on 07/04/2009 08:02:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I thought the biggest mistake in US history... (none / 0)
...was the appointment of George W. Bush to the Presidency.  The second biggest, of course, was the election of Ronald Reagan, but we'll leave that discussion for another time.

I notice that you haven't provided any links to sources that might back up your claims.  You haven't even linked to the usual right-wing nutjob sources.  The only link you do provide is to a video of Rep. Scalise asking how much it would cost to fix the climate without wondering how much it will cost if we don't fix it.

Oh!  Right!  It's all a hoax, isn't it?

The debate about whether or not climate change is a danger to our planet is over.  The debate about the causes of climate change are now only about how much humans contribute to it, the consensus being that we have a significant effect, and what we can do about it.

But it means that your current investments will suffer, doesn't it, as we shift our economy to "greener" technologies.

I am continually amazed, although I probably shouldn't be, at how little you right-wingers actually care about your children's futures, since you're so blindly willing to risk so much to line your pockets.

If we're wrong, we've wasted a few billion, but we get cleaner air and water.  If you're wrong, people die needlessly, and we end up spending trillions upon trillions.

We're not wrong.

by EveningStarNM on 06/28/2009 12:37:07 AM EST

Correction. (none / 0)
I wrote, "The debate about whether or not climate change is a danger to our planet is over."

I should have written, "The debate about whether or not climate change is a danger to human habitat is over."

by EveningStarNM on 06/28/2009 12:46:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
As a European, I'm begging you ! DO NOT PASS THIS! (none / 0)

Please coutinue to have an oil based economy.  In Europe, we will keep the lead for an energy independant economy. We will be very glad to sell you our know-how.

The USA will have the choice to pay the Saudis for oil (but it will be more expensive) or to buy European/Asian technology to obtain the energy they need. Plus, if you don't have sufficient incentives for a green economy (engineers, technicians, politicians) you might loose more of your workforce. As an example, It might be less productive to build Volkwagens and Toyotas in the US with a new, green technology, if Amercia has no interest it, no interest in education and financing for those technology. I'm not saying they will close foreign carmaker factories in the us, but this criteria will become crucial when answering the question "Where are we going to build our next car manufacture?"

 

You don't care about climate change ? You don't care about energy independane? (Yes those two are linked) Have at it !

by moogly81 on 06/29/2009 09:12:33 AM EST

Don't worry, Europe. (none / 0)
Your future dominance of the green energy technology industry is probably safe.  We're investing next to nothing in it, and we're not motivating our industries to buy into it, either.  We probably won't care about it until well after we see how rich you're getting from it.  Hopefully, when we do get into it, we won't be too late to help save what's left of the human habitat on this planet.  I'm just hoping that we'll still have a summer northern polar ice cap to work with.

by EveningStarNM on 06/29/2009 10:17:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't worry, Europe (none / 0)

Your leadership is a beacon for the US.

by Twba on 07/01/2009 08:29:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You can vote your opinion about the bill (none / 0)
at MoveOn.org, but I highly recommend you read Rep. Dennis Kucinich's opposition to the bill first to better understand why I voted NO.

E-mail I received from MoveOn.org about H.R. 2454, The American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009:

The U.S. House passed a huge energy bill Friday. Lots of good people are applauding the passage of this legislation. But here's the ugly truth:

Big Oil and Coal lobbyists, working in cahoots with some conservative Blue Dog Democrats, weakened the bill terribly--it now falls far short of President Obama's campaign vision to transition America's economy to clean energy and create millions of new jobs.

In fact, the bill repeals a key part of the Clean Air Act and doesn't do nearly enough to shift America to renewable energy--so instead of a boom in solar and wind, the bill locks us into dirty coal power for another generation.1

Working with progressive champions in the House, we were able to achieve modest gains at the eleventh hour (see details below). But saving the Clean Air Act and fixing other problems with the bill as the fight moves to the Senate will require a massive grassroots outcry.

So we have a decision to make: Should MoveOn launch a full-court press to fix the bill, and turn up the heat on senators who might be tempted to side with Big Oil and Coal?

Click to vote:

"Yes. Let's fight to save the Clean Air Act and fix the energy bill."

"No. I don't think we should do that." (And tell us why.)

We'll go forward if 2/3 of us who vote think it makes sense.

It's not necessarily an easy choice. Of course we won't stop working on health care or other issues, but this will require significant resources. All of us will need to pitch in to make sure our senators get the message. And there are certainly thoughtful people who say the bill is the best we can do, and we should focus solely on passing it.

You can read differing views on the bill from a variety of leading experts by clicking here. But here's one indication of how far it got weakened:

During the floor debate last week, conservative Democrats openly bragged that the bill would result in "increased coal use."2 They urged others to support it because the Clean Air Act rollbacks in the bill would stop President Obama's Environmental Protection Agency from setting new rules for global warming pollution.3

Most people haven't heard much about these problems in the bill, which runs over 1,200 pages and was negotiated mostly behind closed doors. But as progressive leaders in Congress have spoken out, momentum to fix the bill has grown.

Nearly 50 members of Congress, led by Reps. Chellie Pingree and Keith Ellison, signed a letter calling for the bill to be strengthened.4 And Rep. Lloyd Doggett was one of several who spoke out on the day of the vote, saying, "The fine print [in the bill] betrays its laudable purpose. The real cap is on the public interest and the trade is from the public to the polluters."5 A few even voted against the bill to spotlight its problems.6

To win in the Senate, we need to make sure everyone understands that the Clean Air Act is under attack and highlight the other big problems with the bill. If we decide to proceed with this campaign together, we'll boost progressive champions like those who fought in the House, and expose conservatives who do the bidding of the oil and coal industry.

It's a big step--we'll need to work even harder, and organize even better. And it's up to you.

Should we go ahead with a big campaign to fix the problems with the energy bill as it moves through the Senate?

Click here to vote yes: http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1552&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=6
Click here to vote no (and tell us why): http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1551&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=7

Thanks for all you do.

-Justin, Eli, Michael, Laura and the rest of the team

P.S. It's disappointing that we have not yet succeeded in fixing the most severe problems with the bill. But MoveOn members' strong advocacy, side-by-side with allied groups, made an important difference. We helped prevent the bill from getting even worse and made it moderately stronger in some ways, including:7

    * Programs to increase the federal government's use of renewable energy;
    * Significant new funding for green manufacturing, renewable energy development, and worker training for green jobs; and
    * New investments in money-saving energy efficiency programs for homes and businesses.

Sources:

1. "Under House energy bill, coal won't be going away," Los Angeles Times, June 22, 2009
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1521&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=8

"Big Coal Using Climate Change Bill To Roll Back Clean Air Act," Huffington Post, June 18, 2009
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1542&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=9

"Waxman-Markey Strips EPA of Clean Air Act Authority to Fight Global Warming," Friends of the Earth, June 2009
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1541&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=10

2. Statement of Rep. Rick Boucher on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1544&id=&id=16469-9 225915-HcnEUEx&t=11

3. Ibid., and Statement of Rep. John Dingell on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1545&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=12

4. Letter to Reps. Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Henry A. Waxman, and Edward J. Markey, June 24. 2009. http://www.nrcm.org/documen ts/ACES_Pingreeltr.pdf

5. Statement of Rep. Lloyd Doggett on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June, June 26, 2009. http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=dtoyLBYbb7A

6. Statement of Rep. Peter DeFazio on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June, June 26, 2009. http://www.facebook.com/vid eo/video.php?v=107197708952

Statement of Rep. Pete Stark on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1546&id=&id=16469-9 225915-HcnEUEx&t=13

Statement of Rep. Harry Mitchell on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1547&id=&id=16469-9 225915-HcnEUEx&t=14

Statement of Rep. Dennis Kucinich on the American Clean Energy and Security Act, June, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1548&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=15

7. Summary of Manager's Amendment to the American Clean Energy and Security Act, 1Sky, June 26, 2009. http://www.moveon.org/r?r=5 1549&id=16469-9225915-H cnEUEx&t=16

by gatekeeper50 on 06/29/2009 05:19:36 PM EST

You're right. (none / 0)
It is not a sufficient measure to begin curing what ails us.  Human habitat will continue to suffer, the diversity of species will diminish, coastlines will shrink, lowlands will disappear (goodbye, central Florida and southern Louisiana!), deserts will expand, many rivers will dry up and other rivers will flood, and rain patterns will shift dramatically.  We'll end up spending trillions upon trillions of dollars to cope with the damage caused by our short-sightedness, when a relatively modest sum now could prevent the devastation that's ahead.

But this bill is a start, and we have to start somewhere.  We have to do something now, even if it's not nearly enough.

Campaign finance reform.  That's how we can really begin to solve our problems.

by EveningStarNM on 06/29/2009 07:24:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
To that I agree wholeheartedly. (none / 0)
Campaign Finance Reform Archive

Public Citizen has long been committed to bringing about comprehensive campaign finance reform. The best and most comprehensive reform is voluntary public financing of all federal elections where candidates have strong incentives to replace private money with public funding. We have also played a leading role in pushing for the best incremental reform bills to limit the influence of wealthy special interests.

by gatekeeper50 on 06/30/2009 12:03:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That's where it is at! (none / 0)
Campaign Finance Reform is the root of the root of the root of what ails us.  That should be issue #1 because all other issues are just the end-results of too much money in the political system.

by high5apparatus on 07/13/2010 10:09:14 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Did you like it when.... (none / 0)
Did you like it better back in the 1st Bush administration when it was called "Emissions Trading" and it was used successfully to "reduce sulfur dioxide emissions from power plants to reduce acid rain."

Hell, you can find seven examples of stuff the GOP use to be for, before they were against in an article aptly titled:

Seven Things Republicans Were For, Before They Were Against Them

by high5apparatus on 07/13/2010 10:06:56 AM EST

wait... (none / 0)
don't let your cat post anymore.  we don't need feline trolls.

by high5apparatus on 07/13/2010 04:47:08 PM EST

I'm begining to love spambots (none / 0)
"the largest tax increase in American history"

Yet taxes in 2009 were actually among the lowest on record.

FUnny how all that RWnut fear mongering was 180 degrees off.

How can one party be so wrong, so often?

"No, you are a paid blogger assigned to counter anyone that posts something negative about the government or Obama." by Mcamelyne II on 05/17/2011

by Robrob on 07/29/2010 06:23:35 AM EST

House passes biggest mistake in US history!!! | 56 comments (56 topical, 0 hidden)
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