07/09/2009 10:16:28 PM EST

Questions about solar paneling.

posted by EuphoriagenicCause

So I was doing calculations on how long it would take to make the money back, and I've ran into a few problems.

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Firstly, I'm not entirely sure which inverters work the best.  Secondly I'm not sure how long it stays on in maximum in distance to and from sun rise and sun set.  Thirdly, I'm not sure how much the penumbra from a cloud will set it back.  And finally I don't know if it ever gets any kind of nominal anything from the moon.

If you can answer any of these questions, or give me a site that offers tips (preferably with out charging)I'd be very grateful.

I'm incidentally interested in the earths change in location and angle when orbit to the sun (how much will waver over the next few years),  if the energy of light dissipates inverse squarely from the sun in a perfectly spherical manner, and how much that would effect on the panels.  I'd also be very appreciative if anyone could point me in the right direction on this.

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Poll

Do you think solar paneling is efficient?
Yes, in all cases. 16%
Yes, but only for use in very near by building/homes. 50%
No, but it will be. 16%
No, and I'm not sure it ever will be. 16%
Who gives a shit? I leave all electronics on in my house while I drive around in my Hummer. 0%

Votes: 6
Results | Other Polls
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Questions about solar paneling. | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
depends where you live too. (none / 0)
depends where you live. further up north solar paneling is less efficient and you have to place it south facing. what kind of solar panels are you using, some solar panels only work for 6 hours at peak efficiency and need to be angled correctly. some only work for like an hour at peak and need constant adjustments to be maximally efficient.

as for the cloud thing it again depends on the type of solar panel and which wavelength of light it requires. as for the moon light as far as i know moonlight amounts to negligible amounts of energy from solar panels, just like star light doesn't do much.

also how much does energy cost in your area and how expensive were the solar panels. there are some supposedly cheap solar panels that work decently well and are very very cheap, cost recovered within a year sometimes less. tho i've personally never tried it. if you want the most clean energy you should use a combination of wind and solar.

in canada the government has a guide for some of these. maybe you can find some answers there.

http://canmetenergy-canmete nergie.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/en g/renewables/canren.html

i tried to get a solar and wind set up for my house but in calgary they have stupid ass bi law's that prevented me. but currently that's going to the courts so i still have my systems in my basement waiting for the decision of the court so i can install them. but in my case it's not economically viable i worked out it for me (living up north) it would take some 8-10 years for me to recover the cost. BUT i didn't do it to save money exactly heheh.

now as for the earth's orbit thing i'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, are you talking about the yearly angles to the sun?

epoch     J2000
aphelion     152,097,701 km ,1.0167103335 AU
perihelion     147,098,074 km , 0.9832898912 AU
semimajor     149,597,887.5 km , 1.0000001124 AU
eccentricity     0.016710219
inclination     Reference (0) , 7.25° to Sun's equator
asc_node     348.73936°
arg_peri     114.20783°
period     365.256366 days, 1.0000175 yr
avg_speed     29.783 km/s , 107,218 km/h

those are some of the stats for our orbit. if you're in the northern hemisphere then as you reach the winter solstice the sun moves southward away from it's east - west pattern. in the summer it can move north of it's east west pattern. further up north you get much much longer days in the summer and very short days in winter. where i live in peak summer sunrise happens around 5:30'ish sunset happens at like 10:45pm. but in winter sunrise happens at 7:45am and sunset is like at 4:45'ishpm. depending on what kind of solar panel you have the angles will account for more. some photovoltaic panels can handle a wider angle of light and some (the really efficient ones) have a smaller window for angles. which is why they're usually mounted on something that can tilt as the day goes by.

by kingbane on 07/09/2009 10:42:43 PM EST

Thank You!! (none / 0)
Well how much my energy costs depends on how you calculate it.  I spent 11.74 cents per Kilo Watt Hour last month on the cost of energy, but they tagged on $7.73 for being a customer and $2.41. The average for the year is supposed to be 9.7 cents per KWH.  Though, I've only started keeping personal track of cost of KWH this last month.

 By adding together the minutes of sunlight for the first and last days for each month and dividing by 2 and got.
January-   611.5min  or 10hr 11.5min
February-  659min    or 10hr 59min
March-     720min    or 12hr
April-     784.5min  or 13hr 4.5min
May-       838min    or 13hr 58min
June-      864min    or 14hr 24min
July-      849.5min  or 14hr 9.5min
August-    803.5min  or 13hr 23.5min
September- 742min    or 12hr 22min
October-   678 min   or 11hr 12min
November-  622.5 min or 10hr 22.5min
December-  596 min   or 9r 56min
I took these numbers multiplied them by the number of days in the month and added them all together to get 702027 minutes a year or 11700 hr and 27 minutes a year.
(I know I'll have to do the solstice months differently, but I'm not high enough to deal with that right now.)
And I was really trying to figure out if there is a way to find out what the change in daylight will be yearly between days on the same date.  I suppose I was probably going about it the long way in finding it by earths position & angle to the sun.  Though if this could be done, I'd really like to know the formula.  Also, I'll admit those stats did baffle me a little, but I'll start studying right after I can sneak out to toke up again.

If you could give me any information on where you think the best places to find parts online would be and why they work better with one another it'd really mean a lot.

I'm checking this place out for the cells.
http://sunelec.com/index.ph p?main_page=index&cPath =32
I know some places that have tin wire, and I'm upgrading my soldering iron.  I'm still really not sure what kind of Power Inverter I would need for my grid.  And I'm still considering different types of casing.  But if you could point a direction to find these answers I would certainly follow.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 01:05:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Equation with Theoretical Numbers (none / 0)
If I get 2 KiloWattHours (KWH) per hour then in North Little Rock (where I live) I  get 11,700 of sun a year so I would get 23,400 KWH of energy minus obstructions.  The price for electricity is around 10 cents per KWH(A little over 11 right now, but the average is SUPPOSED to be 9.7 so I'll go with the easy number a little over it.)  This means I have to divide by 10 if I want to get dollars.  So it's obviously $2,340 a year where I am minus cost of obstructions.(If it doesn't move then time of shade, If I don't clean it then dirtiness, I can't stop the clouds, and any form of partial eclipse... I'm sure there are more and will keep trying to figure them in.)

If we could find a way to buy in bulk it's a lot cheaper I'm sure.  I'm going to call these guys
http://sunelec.com/index.ph p?main_page=index&cPath =32 tomorrow to see what I can talk out.

If we use the prices of $0.61 per watt, (I heard $0.85 was supposed to be good) then we could get an idea of what it should begin to cost when it all comes together.

It takes 1000 watts to make a kilowatt.  So it takes 1000 watts activated for an hour to make a kilowatt hour or KWH.  To get 2 KWH per hour you would need 2000 watts of solar paneling. You can find the cells cost by multiplying by it's price per cell.  Since 2000 x .61 is 1220 you know it's precisely $1220.00 to buy the solar cells (Not full panels yet) to get 2KWH per hour.

So add that with other costs and obstructions subtract from $2,340 to find out precisely how much ground you'll cover in the first year.  (Of course I know some of these things like the weather can't be predetermined, but we can resort to the almanac and meteorology to ball park it.)

So far I've got $2,340 - 1220.00 + $165.00 for inverter and ? for all other costs and obstructions, lets try to figure out and or delete as many of these as possible

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 05:06:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Link to the inverter (none / 0)
http://www.topsalesdepot.co m/abc.html?gclid=CIWjtqL4yZ sCFRdGxwodNyznig

If anybody knows why this wouldn't work for solar from battery to house please tell me.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 05:20:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]
here we go. (none / 0)
this is where i bought my systems. they use a grid intertie system which is pretty easy to set up. basically plug and play. the grid intertie bypasses the need for a battery. the energy you get goes directly into your box and the grid. so if on the off chance you make more electricity then you use the power company has to PAY you at THEIR rates. basically anytime you produce power it sends that power into the grid, since the elec company has to pay you for that power they just deduct it from your bill, penny for penny. as for the inverter i just used the one they sent with most packages tho they do have some options there.

now for the angle of the sun this is a good diagram you can use. to figure out the angles on different day's of the sun you just need to realize it goes around the sun and the sun's rays always come in horizontal (in accordance with that diagram). now note the angel of the earth's tilt is, 23 and a half degree's, that diagram is at summe solstice, so for winters solstice the earth would be 23 and a half tilt to the left, instead of the right. which means across the year the total degree of change is 57 degree's you divide 57 degrees by 365, and that's how many degrees worth of change you get per day. from there you just use some trig and your location on latitude(or was it longitude, i always mix those up) to figure out the angle of the sun.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 04:33:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
whoops (none / 0)
forgot to paste the link hahah

http://www.energyalternativ es.ca/catalogue/Categories/ 263.htm

there. hope that works.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 04:38:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
dude i suck today. (none / 1)
the first link there is to the place where i got my own solar and wind systems. i forgot to paste the link for the sun diagram duh.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2 471088/How-to-Find-the-Suns -Angle-above-Horizon

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 04:43:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
THANK YOU! (none / 0)
Now we are really getting some where.  I haven't slept in a little over a day, so I should probably give my brain some sort of rest before I do so much.  Though from what I see it looks very promising!  I will get on that as soon as I have any free time.  Thank you again.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 05:15:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You know what. (none / 0)
This is a very good example of supply and demand coming into effect for time to buy.  If you look at the most expensive solar paneling at http://sunelec.com/ will end up being about 3/4s the price.  I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I'm pretty sure these guys are betting on changing the market.  I want to make sure they do it.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 05:21:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
ea those guys. (none / 0)
i had tried to buy from them originally i almost forgot. but back when i bought my stuff they had issues with shipping to canada so i wasn't able to purchase from them. as you can see in canada solar power is even MORE expensive. sad really. might also be because our energy companies dont use solar at all because of how north we are. i know enmax (energy company where i'm from) uses a decent percentage of wind power but no solar as of yet. and if no energy company has any demands for solar panels then production of them would be low.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 05:32:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I tried to research this (none / 0)
I found it was far more complicated to figure out than I anticipated.

In a nut shell, based on how hard it was to ather facts and data on solar panels, I suspect its not going to save any money and may be a higher cost to maintain.

Technology is alwas changing though, so I might have to look at that option again and see if there is any better info.

by Smokin on 07/09/2009 11:02:12 PM EST

part of it. (none / 0)
part of it is because it's not very popular so info is not so easily accessible. as it currently is it's not entirely economically feasible for most people. it takes too long to recoup your initial investment. if you do do it, you shouldn't be doing it to save money. i tried, really hard, to do this in a way where i could seriously save money and it just didn't seem like it would help. but i mean if you plan to live in your house for decades then it would be worth it in the long run, even if just a little.  although if you live near the equator solar systems used to heat water can save ALOT of money very quickly. those systems are SUPER cheap compared to solar panels. i mean really they're basically glorified pipes painted black with a gate operated by how how a pad gets. so if there's enough sun light hitting the pad it switches the gate and lets water in to be heated via solar. in peak time sin summer you could pretty much get all your hot water needs via that system. if you live in like california or something you could get all hot water needs year round. unless you're like a family of 7 or something.

by kingbane on 07/09/2009 11:18:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well from what I've got so far. (none / 0)
I think might be able to get my money back in a little less than a year, and when I upgrade it will be cheaper.  Though, I'm still getting a lot of the calculations together, and I wouldn't put a definite number on anything yet.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 01:30:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Have to run the numbers (none / 0)
Not just for how much it will save you but how much it will add to the resale value of your home.

"No, you are a paid blogger assigned to counter anyone that posts something negative about the government or Obama." by Mcamelyne II on 05/17/2011

by Robrob on 07/10/2009 01:39:48 AM EST

And how "green" is it really? (none / 0)
I admit Im ignorant, but there is at least a good sounding counter point, the batteries still need to be produced and that's not really a green thing.

by Smokin on 07/10/2009 03:43:52 AM EST

Yeah I know. (none / 0)
That's one of the reasons I really want to get into the circuit...  Well that and if I produce more than I make they have to buy it back.  I'm really looking for a free site, but it looks like all these greedy bastards want you to pay for the information.  If I figure everything out I'll give all numbers statistic and how much it really costs.  In fact since I like math and I'm figuring out the formulas, if anybody wants some statistics for their town I'll do what ever I can for free. I'll also give the formulas and the sites to proof. Though, I'd really appreciate any help I could get in finding out exactly what it takes, and what my first steps in buying really should be.  So if anybody even knows a really good site to find out, I'd be really grateful.  BTW I know at least some of these have been shut down so I don't know if they are available for free anymore.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 04:16:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
actually (none / 0)
actually it's VERY green, if you use a grid intertie system you can bypass the use of a battery altogether and tie in directly to the grid. which means you use already in place infrastructure. the only real environmental impact left is when the panel is no longer useable and you have to chuck it. but because the panels are basically silicon, some metal, and glass (yea i realize glass is silicon) they can melt it down and make new panels pretty easily.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 04:35:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
oh and uh. (none / 0)
i think i mentioned it before but you really should consider a wind mill to go with your panels. you can slap up it on your houses peaks. they can produce more energy then solar panels and are generally cheaper in terms of per kwh production to dollars ratio. plus on cloudy days and in winter it's usually windier, so it mitigates the ineffective times of solar energy.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 04:38:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You may be over thinking this. (none / 0)
A lot of states offer matching funds to go along with the federal tax rebate of 30%. In addition, there are green energy certificates you can sell based on your production. For a residential system, that may be wroth as much as $1000 a year. Many states also require that the local supplier buy back your excess production during the day, so then you don’t need a battery. You might also want consider a residential wind mill if it will work in your area. There are also trackers out there which seem to be coming down in price. I have ordered one, but am still waiting. Worst case, get a bi-axle mounting system that you can adjust a couple of times during the year or even during the day if you are home. As far as the inverter goes, get something that you can add to in the future.

Not sure if this helps or not, the conversation is a bit over my head.


by sisco66 on 07/10/2009 05:47:55 AM EST

Efficiency (none / 0)
I'd be very interested in the final estimate of its efficiency (both for the environment and economics wise). I'm not much for solar power, usually, but then I live in Denmark, not California. :) We focus a lot on wind power, which I love. Wind mills are beautiful, and as you build them bigger the efficiency increases.
Anyway, please post some conclusions if you find them. :)

by Sorenzo on 07/10/2009 07:49:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I think I might have something else (none / 0)
that's pretty interesting too.  Check out Plan 1 in it's entirety.  I'm about to post it. I think it's pretty cool and you might too.

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 07:55:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Here Comes The Sun (none / 0)

I use solar here at my home in northern Nevada to augment the grid power as an emergency source.

As I write this,  the return on investment isn't there , even with tax incentives.  The last numbers I saw claimed industry wide efficiency of solar cells at 22%. There are new types of cells in development that claim efficiency in the low 40% range.

If and when those cells become cost effective solar may be more economically feasible as a every day power source.This is my opinion, your results my differ.

Cell efficiency would also mitigate variations in solar intensity over the years. I don't think you need to worry about that. If solar energy varies that much I think we would have bigger problems. Earthly factors like atmospheric particulates from volcanic activity, cloud cover and pollution would have a greater impact than the  minor variations in solar intensity.

Moon light? Maybe a few million years ago when the moon was closer. The USGS publishes solar density maps as do several pro-solar organizations. Solar day tables can be obtained from NOAA\NWS and the Naval Observatory.

Affordable commercial inverters use the same technolgy, most are "digital" now using ICs to time the DC pulses to simulate a 60hz current. 

 

Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.

All hope abandon ye who enter here.

by OccamsRazor on 07/10/2009 12:34:59 PM EST

ROI (none / 0)
I have not sat down and done the math lately, but when I did, it was orignally about 17 year break even point. That was before the big increase in the federal deductions and energy certs, and I live in the northeast. Now I think the break even point is closer to 10 years. What are basing your numbers on as far as a return on investment? Certainly you have done better with the solar than stocks or bonds?

Don't forget that there is also an added equity value to your home.

by sisco66 on 07/10/2009 03:21:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
ROI ROI ROI your float (none / 0)
Don't forget that there is also an added equity value to your home.

Ah to dream. 

The ROI I speak of is not the same as a valuation and yield of a security or increase in equity by appreciation of a stock.

My cost was based on the  number of panels required, support equipment, battery replacement and installation costs and a simple cost projection Rate hikes by SPP would decrease that.

I do have a system by Sentinel that provides emergency lighting

With 40% cells the panel size would be smaller, generating hours longer. The cost would be the determining factor.I would assume as the 40% cell hit the market, cost would drop for the old technology.

There are intangibles involved. The idea of being independent of the grid plus the ability to locate a home on less than optimal land are some.


Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.

All hope abandon ye who enter here.

by OccamsRazor on 07/10/2009 04:25:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
independent of the grid ! (none / 0)
Amen on that.

If you are building from scratch or fixing up, that is a differnt story. The ROI from good building practices, passive solar, grading and plantings along with some geothermal HVAC will limit the amount of energy you need by 75% +/-. Geothermal alone is a better investment than solar, at least where I live. At some point I will upgrade that as well.

Just think if IBM or Intel had put as much into solar as they did computer chips......

by sisco66 on 07/10/2009 09:26:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There are lots of things more efficiant than solar (none / 0)
I've already added Argon insulation, as well as a few other things.  I need to look into geothermal as well as a few other things, too.  However, I'd like to know when you guys did your statistics how much were you paying per watt of solar paneling, and what was the cost of energy at the time?

by EuphoriagenicCause on 07/10/2009 10:39:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
when i did it. (none / 0)
i bought my stuff... hmm let's see 3 years ago? it was much more expensive. it was like 900$ per watt canadian. which is something like 700'ish american? or so. it was very expensive, wind power i dont remember exactly but it was at least 50% less expensive then solar.

by kingbane on 07/10/2009 11:30:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Questions about solar paneling. | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
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