01/21/2010 09:56:48 PM EST

Can You Hear Me Now?

posted by sisco66

You can thank old Ronnie Raygun for opening the corporate flood gates back in the 1980's. Yep Cenk, your boy's removal of the upper tax bracket that was put in place by FDR himself to deter the sort of greed and corruption that caused the great depression has been at the root of the runaway looting that has gone on for the last 30 years.

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Running an economic, political and social system that is based on greed is as inane a concept as feeding your family crack. How much more do you need to see? Sarah Palin in the White House?
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Can You Hear Me Now? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 hidden)
Sarah Palin in the White House wouldn't be enough. (none / 0)
The last time we had a class war, it took riots in the streets before things began to change.  I don't see any reason to think that human nature has changed sufficiently to eliminate that requirement.  Most of our corrupt politicians (and who of them aren't nowadays) are not bright enough to get the message until you hit them over the head with it.

Bloody Thursday riot
Bloody Thursday

Note that this was a little over four years after the collapse of Wall Street and the banks, and it wasn't until the next year, 1935, that FDR signed the National Labor Relations Act that began to grow our middle class.

People aren't mad enough yet, but they're getting there.  The teabaggers are just the beginning, and the politicians think that they can be ignored because, for the most part, they're undereducated, uninformed, and unintelligent.   They're right, of course, but as conditions worsen, more people will get out into the streets and there will be more protests because the rich will do everything they can to resist change and to continue exploiting the poor and the middle class.

by EveningStarNM on 01/21/2010 11:00:39 PM EST

Great to learn something new (none / 0)
I thought the last clas war with riots in the streets was in LA in '92. Didn't change anything. You guys should stop dreaming about revolution like a teenager who can't get laid. Get used to the fact that democracy is dead and learn to live with it. No riot will change that. Every riot will give the people in power more justification to secure their system with heavily armed "troops".

Get your arms and fight to cement your defeat.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 01/22/2010 12:38:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Your ignorance. (none / 0)
The 1992 riot (not plural) was a single-issue, local affair that was little more than a temper tantrum by a relatively small number of people who saw an opportunity to go wild and did.  The solution to the problem that motivated the riot was minor legislation and reform in the LAPD.  Sure, the rest of the country was interested, but only insofar as we were wondering how long it would take LA and California to figure out what was obvious to everyone else.  There was no need for national action beyond the trial in federal court.

And if you're stupid enough to believe that the masses will lay down while their power is taken from them then you have never learned anything from human history.  The trend has always been toward a stronger middle class and more freedom.  There obviously are times when the very rich -- and a few severely mentally ill and very violent people -- try to institute permanent changes to society in order to protect their tyranny, but those policies and practices never last.

by EveningStarNM on 01/22/2010 01:11:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Never last? (none / 0)
In the end you are obviously right about that, but what about the time frame?

Take the Roman Empire. Started as a democracy, turned into tyranny, had problems with terrorists and civil uprises... and survived it for centuries.

You also are talking about a time when the spheres of influence were much smaller, the control was not as efficient, and politics had more severe influences for the day to day lives of the people.

Your idea is exactly what Marx proclaimed and he was wrong with his prophecies, because capitalism takes the breaking point of people into consideration.
They don't keep exploiting people until they have to revolt to survive, they stop just before.
A major civil uprising in America would speed up the process of China's State-Capitalism taking control. This would lead to a much worse situation for America.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 01/22/2010 02:43:14 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Everything is faster today. (none / 0)
What took 500 years to collapse before requires only 250 years today.  But my thesis holds even with China: the power of the middle class is growing there, too, and freedoms are increasing.  The Chinese lost their freedoms only 61 years ago, and their society is vastly different today than it was a mere twenty years ago.

I do take your point about capitalism learning from its mistakes.  But if you look at the societies around us with much longer histories and with much stronger capitalist pasts, they've already been through what we're going through.  Because their economies were not as large as ours and because their middle classes were generally more knowledgeable than ours, their transitions to a post-capitalist blend of socio-capitalism have been much smoother.  America has not cherished education as many other societies have, and therefore has been weaker in fending off the corporate takeover.  But eventually, the corporate structure of America will be weakened by pressures both from within and without enough that reform can prevail.

Think of yourself as an organizer or an agitator or a saboteur or even as a soldier, although you won't be needing a gun or any explosives.  You only need to be louder and more insistent and less yielding than the other guy.

Now, get to work.

by EveningStarNM on 01/22/2010 06:50:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The (Eastern) Roman Empire (none / 0)
lasted nearly 1500 years. Seems like America has still some time to go. ;)

Your thesis doesn't really hold with China. Some of my best friends are Chinese and they complain heavily that the gap between rich and poor is ever expanding in China and that the middle class (they didn't really call it that) diminishes. The number of working poor and the fortununes of the rich are expanding. that's all. Even people who grew up under Mao's regime can't agree if his reforms were bad or good. They agree that they were a step forward from the situation they had before, but on the other hand the cry about the direction the Chinese economy is taking and say that he laid the groundwork for that.

When you are talking about the histories of countries with longer histories and stronger capitalistic pasts you are not talking about Europe, are you? Strangely the education of the masses coincides with the raise of capitalism in most European countries.

If you want to make any comparison you have to go into more detail, otherwise I won't accept your point.

I think of myself as none of the things that you have mentioned. I think of myself as an individual and hope to inspire other people, or at least challenge their ideologies.

Any change that you want to see you have to find within capitalism. The only weapon you have is your power to consume.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 01/22/2010 09:47:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Sorry. (none / 0)
I thought that I was replying to sisco66.

by EveningStarNM on 01/22/2010 11:45:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Huh? (none / 0)

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 01/22/2010 12:22:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Think global, shop local! (none / 0)
Or fair trade/green/from small companies!

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 01/22/2010 09:50:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Political Rap Sheets (none / 0)
Let’s start with John Roberts. This corporate shill helped cover up a fixed election in Florida and was rewarded with the position of Chief Justice. How the fuck did this criminal ever get confirmed at the same time we were sending people to Iraq to die in the name of democracy?

Oh ya, Harry Reid....He needs to go right now, not a another second with that weak dick fuck.


There is conversation about impeaching Roberts for the ruling. I am saying, he should be impeached for playing part in the fascist coup in 2000. Not to mention, should have never been confirmed.

by sisco66 on 01/22/2010 05:50:34 AM EST

Can You Hear Me Now? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 hidden)
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