03/10/2010 09:48:56 PM EST

I Agree With Kucinich

posted by Incubus2461

Every liberal I know has been bitching ON an ON about how Democrats aren't fighting for them. And now that Kucinich has stood up there's talk about running a primary?!?!? And what? Move to the right?

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Here's the thing. I'm against this healthcare reform. I don't like it at all. It's a big give away to the medical industrial complex. Why is it when a system doesn't work rather than admitting that the market isn't going to work we just throw money at it? Why aren't we getting that money and using it to provide healthcare directly? It's simple. Obama's talking about how we shouldn't be giving student loan money to banks, which frankly i don't think has a chance with Rahm Emanuel and him in charge, but he wants to do the exact opposite with health care. I'm for single payer. It's not a matter of being unreasonable, it's just that i don't think it's prudent to send rejected families back to the ones who rejected them. Send them somewhere safe like Medicare. we know that works. This bill will make it harder by galvanizing the insurance industry, and not allowing states to set up their own single-payer system because of the ERISA law. The insurance companies would sue the states and because of their immense size(via this bill) would win. Obama said it himself he's a "new democrat" you know the neo-liberal pro-corporate wing of the democratic party that would rather take corporate money than fighting for people. We see it in healthcare. This bill extends monopoly of drug providers by A: Not allowing Medicare to negotiate and B: Extending the copyright time before generics can be made from 6 to 12 years. Yea, there's no lifetime cap, but there is a yearly cap. "oh your cancer treatments are doing great, i got some bad news for you. you ran out of money this year." And this is what we're mandated to buy? And at a time when corporations are passing all of the added expense of their cheap products like making processed food leading to cancer, diabetes and other diseases and making us pay for it through the externalities, making us pay for global warming, making us pay for the devastation caused by banks and land destroying, marginalizing the workforce at poverty wages and everything else. why should our money be going to these crooks to the tune of 70B a year? Why cant it go straight to us? When is their turn to pay? why does the insurance get to take off 30%? 
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Agree/Disagree
Agree 85%
Disagree 14%

Votes: 14
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I Agree With Kucinich | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 hidden)
IMHO (none / 0)
the first step in getting to single-payer is recognzing that health care is a right, not a privilege.  As bad as this bill is in certain areas that everyone mentions, it does take that gigantic leap.

If you don't make that leap now, then when?  Do you think killing this is going to bring single-payer quicker?  That won't happen (which we know, since we killed this bill in 1994 for that reason).

While purity is great in theory, this is what it gets you if you take it too far.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/10/2010 09:56:52 PM EST

Step? (none / 0)
In what direction? You’re not solving anything. Funny thing is Obama once said something like “You can't solve homelessness buy making people buy houses", what subsidize them? It's a stupid move that doesn't move towards single-payer either. How is this moving towards that? The mandate THEN the single-payer system? Then people keep saying it will be built upon. When? Next Term? Next President? There is no movement or support for it, they are going to pass this and tell you to shut up and be happy. Those subsidies aren't going to help much, premiums are going to continue to skyrocket and those subsidies won’t mean much to be with serious problems.

To make matters worse, is that this thing isn’t going to do much with more people losing jobs + unable to afford it, the stress the subsidies are going to be under is going to be more than what we have now. So unless you just want to increase the subsidies every year it won’t mean much. Then to the final point is that the Reps are going to Butt Rape Dems with the amendments they put in this thing, therefore blaming this “far left” bill for it when it’s actually a right wing bill. You think you will get Single Payer when most people will be blaming “leftist” policy for this?

If people want to wait 30 years to come back to this if ever and with most likely worst views towards leftist and progressive policies then good luck, I’m going to be laughing from Canada.

by Alloy on 03/10/2010 10:52:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Strawman (none / 0)

History, is it too much to ask for a bill which isn't absolutely terrible?  I know you know the arguments, but you are swayed so much to believe that this _must_ pass for the hypothetical future good of the country that you are not thinking about any other ramifications.  You are saying that we cannot strive for total Purity.  I agree.  Can we strive for--30% of what we wanted?  Is that too much?  Can we strive for a bill that doesn't doom the Democratic Party for the next 15 cycles?  Is that too pure?  You are acting as though this is a good though not perfect bill, so we are trading away real assets for the mystery behind Door #3.  But this bill is a disastrous failure.  What are you hanging onto?

It is a death knell to Progressivism in the eyes of the voters.  Democrats will be blamed for the raising of premiums, for the restricted abortion access, for the higher taxes, for the fact that, when the subsidies get cut by the next Republican administration, people will not be able to afford their mandatory coverage, and for the fact that they will look "arrogant" for pushing ahead with this unpopular bill.  There aren't enough Liberals in Washington to fight to make this better or to make the case for a greatly enhanced Progressive bill down the line.  And with the country soon to run out of money, the campaign finance laws now rigged even more toward Corporatists, and the general wave of falsely blaming the Left for this bill, how can you imagine that there will be a Progressive Congress that is going to make this bill much, much better in the foreseeable future?  And have the political leverage and resource and courage to do so?

We HAVE to have a line beyond which we can't be pushed any further.  We have given up everything.  That final line was crossed in December and we just continued to cave.  WE WILL ALWAYS GET 1% UNLESS WE ARE PREPARED TO WALK AWAY.

by Milltycoon on 03/11/2010 03:26:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
This Bill (none / 0)
has most of what progressives (whether you believe it or not) want.  It is the 1994 Clinton HCR Bill and it's pretty damn similiar to the Dean Vermont plan.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/11/2010 06:27:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
We (none / 0)
Don't believe; however continue to follow the Obama Admin and Dems off a cliff. There people who only learn till after the event happens so again keep following :/

If this is what Progressives want then thank Imaginary Jesus that I'm a socialist.

by Alloy on 03/11/2010 01:23:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Re (none / 0)
I heard the same record from Kill the Billers on the stimulus.

They wanted to kill that, they want to kill this, they want to kill the financial bill & the energy bill.  The teabag left is closely resembling the Party of No.

My pos is the same as Bernie Sanders, pretty much across the board from politiics to policy. There is a reason why he has been successful in his career while Dennis has produced nothing but failure in his 40 year political career.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/11/2010 01:35:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
LMAO (none / 0)
Your pos is to pass anything. Then maybe re-visit the thing without any concrete plan, I guess so you and the Dems can say you didn't see the cliff. All those bills are failures in how they where and are going to be conducted, so keep proving the point. All these bills do is to try and push the inevitable collapse of the systems they deal with because corporatists must milk the populace as much as possible.

People tied down to parties amuse me. Almost like religion in a way.

by Alloy on 03/11/2010 01:57:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And (none / 0)
what Party is Sanders tied to again?

I'd rather align myself with him than Boehner if that is what you're saying.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/11/2010 02:27:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Outside the box (none / 0)

Since US citizens technically own the government why not just change the eligibility of the FEHB program that federal workers enjoy and allow all US citizens to be eligible with no pre-existing conditions.  That's probably just a regulatory change and doesn't need congress's approval.

Then they can debate a program to give subsidies for those who can't afford health insurance rather than this mishmash of health reform which does nothing to control costs or premiums.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/10/2010 10:47:11 PM EST

Kucinich is standing firm opposition to the insura (none / 0)

Insurance give away that this bill is in fact a massive TARP like program that will waste hundreds of billions to pay for over priced insurance that people no longer can afford.

It will fail, it will fail horribly, and the Democrats will own it if they pass this garbage.

by wowisdabomb on 03/11/2010 10:25:43 AM EST

This insurance (none / 0)

bill is a perfect example of why I can never get fully on board with the Dems. The US spends double the next country on a per capita basis in regard to health care. If properly reformed, our cost should go down along with our benefit increasing dramatically.

There are a couple of good provisions in the bill(getting rid of pre-existing) but mostly this bill is a give away to ins companies. The mandate coupled with no increased,real, competition means this will be both expensive and change little.

It is bad governance and a typical Democrat response to any problem.

 

by finerbiner on 03/11/2010 11:30:43 AM EST

If the congress will not do health reform... (none / 0)
again for the next 15 or 20 years, why does anyone think they will fix this broken bill within the next 15-20 years. The effects of this bill will not be felt until 2014. In the mean time, the dems will lose congress , because of apathy  and anger in the base, the republicans will have stripped and destroyed the bill and we will not have anything that remotely resembles healthcare reform so why not wait? When the dems pass this Frankenstein monster of a bill, the public will blame the dems for bullshit governance and turn on them anyway.
So democrats, why not pass a decent bill
(not single payer)but medicare buy in with some subsidies and stopping recision and all the rest.

by mmosespt on 03/11/2010 11:50:40 AM EST

Because (none / 0)
They can do expanded Medicare or the PO as a stand alone issue.  

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/11/2010 12:04:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They won't (none / 0)
After this. After this Dems and Health won't go together and if you think they don't have the support and votes for it now then wait for the bill to pass.

by Alloy on 03/11/2010 01:17:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I Agree With Kucinich | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 hidden)
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