Niqab in Quebec seen from the inside

I'm probably one of the only French Canadian listeners of the show and so far, I've found it to be one of the only shows where the hosts could use their brain to give an opinion, instead of relying on other sources and copy-paste an opinion to save time.  I don't know if it is because they stepped out of America, but on this subject, they've got it pretty much wrong from A to Z.

First, they presented the subject without mentioning so many important details, that it seems as if they took all their informations from a French bashing columnist in the Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star.  Here are some "slightly" important facts that were forgotten.

- Before taking the course, she didn't have any problem meeting an administrative representative without her niqab because the representative was a woman.  She also gave her a photo of her without her niqab.

 - the muslim woman than insisted to wear her niqab during class because there were men (3 out of 20) in the class. The college allowed this.

 - During the class, there were some pronouciation exercise where students are required to show their lips.  As stupid as this might sound (and I think it is), it is a rule that every other students bend to.  Knowing that sending someone home over such a stupidity would be ridiculous, the college agreed that, for this particular exercise, the woman could get away from the rest of the class and do the exercise alone with the teacher.The niqab woman agreed to this in the beginning, but as time went by, she started refusing removing her niqab in private until she said she wouldn't remove it anymore.

- She then had to make an oral presentation in front of the class.  Not wanting to speak in front of other men, she refused.  Then again, the school decided to accomodate her and she was allowed to do her oral presentation at the back of the class while facing the wall.

 - After 6 months she... wait what? they negociated with her over 6 months? Because after watching TYT, I thought as soon as she entered the building she got kicked out at the speed of light by intollerant Frenchmen.  Anyway after 6 months, she was requested to do a social exercise where people had to speak with each other.  Knowing that she would again demand, not to speak with men, she was allowed to speak only with women, but apparently, that was not enough.  She demanded to the teacher to remove the 3 men from the class, or to move them in a way that they wouldn't be facing her niqab.

 - The 3 men then posted complaints to the school and told them that for 6 months, all that BS had been slowing their integration process.  The school then asked the government for an authorisation to send the woman home which they were granted.  The government then sended the woman a letter explaining her the situation and saying that if she wished, she could still continue the course online.

 - She then tried to enroll for the same course again, but she was told that, if she was not planning to remove her niqab, the school wouldn't go over all that crap again to achieve the same result.

 

That's pretty much the whole true story and, from my perspective, the school and the government doesn't appear as racist or controlling freaks.  The niqab woman has a degree and is in process of becoming a pharmacist in Quebec.  What is she expecting? that she will be able to not interact at all with men while being a pharmacist here?  So far, this woman costed the Quebecker tax payers over 100k in health insurance, social security and other immigration administrative costs.  All that the Quebec government is saying to this woman is : We offer you free (she doesn't pay taxes yet) health care, one of the best social security in the world and we are allowing you to pursue your old profession on our soil.  In exchange you learn French by removing your niqab and by going to your classes or if you don't want, you can still learn it at home.  I'm sure that's a deal a lot of people from her original country would be dying to strike.  And while we're at it, in Egypt, the country she's from the government banned the niqab from university classrooms during exams.

In fact, this event is just the last part of a long story that's being going on for some years now.  Here's a quick list of the accomodations Quebec granted immigrants since 2006 :

- A Hassidic Jew demanded to a female police officer who just pulled him over, that he would not speak to a police officer unless he was a male.  The police officer was requested by her superior to obbey to this demand.

- A young Sikh demanded to bring is Kirpah (A ceremonial knife) into classrooms.  Court ruled the school had to let him bring his knife into class while other kids with skulls on their shirt were being kicked out

 - A jew community demanded the windows facing the street of the local YWCA to be tinted so they wouldn't see women training while walking in the streets.  Government accepted and paid for it.  The list goes on and on, I think there are 5 or 6 other cases like these ones.

  But then again, English Canadians judge us like racists because we try to protect our culture, and Americans juste copy-paste their opinions because they can't understand the arguments of the other side.  I wonder which other places in the world let their cops be treated differently according to their gender or let kids bring knives in school because otherwise, it would be against their freedom of religion.  But hey! Quebeckers are obviously targeting specific groups of people because, 1 out of 100 times, they don't give them absolutely everything that they ask for.

 

 I just hope that TYT does not cover every local news they cover like this one, because the way they presented this was as much acurate as Sarah Palin's Book.


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Thank you for giving the real story, TYT really miss there mark here, this is not about religion or the way you dress yourself.  The school administration tries numerious attempts to accommodate this person. 

And this ''dude'' how ignorant he is from what happens in other countries and there way of living. (just to be sure Canada is NOT in the soviet sphere of influence) That is what I don't like from americans, that kind of attitude, I just hope for TYT to be more professional.

Your friendly Canadian neighbour (You know, the one with the barbarie n universal health care;))

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 05:15:51 AM EST

With these kind of stories, for the most part they're going by whatever the Huffington Post article (for example) said and giving their opinions based on that. In this case, apparently the story was framed in terms of banning niqab in the classroom, so that's what they commented on. It's one of the weaknesses of doing a daily 3 hour show with only a handful of people on staff (not to mention, the boss is out of town this week). They unfortunately may not have every detail of every story at the ready. Especially when you get away from US politics and into international stuff, it's harder to see whether a particular story is being presented accurately. Often these things are sensationalized in the US news media.

It is nice to get a Canadian perspective here though. Reading the whole story, it sounds like this woman was a total pain in the ass. It seems clear they went above and beyond trying to accommodate her, to the point that it disrupted everyone else. It also seems like the niqab was not the main issue, but her refusal to participate in exercises and presentations even if allowed to wear it was. The officials involved seem to have blundered in telling her she could only return if she removed the niqab, as this really wasn't the main problem and predictably leads to the kind of reaction displayed on this show.

by Stonefury on 03/16/2010 07:48:40 AM EST

She wants to wear her Niqab....  Its her preference, Do you enforce uniforms at this school or are the rest of the children allowed to wear what they want. Are you scared that her Niqab is going to self-destruct and waste a whole classroom? I suppose you also dont allow gay people in your school..... or obese people or any other minorities....   Just in case everyone in the school wears a Niqab turns Gay gets obese....

 

Fuck You!

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 08:18:15 AM EST

She obviously could not meet the requirements of the class. That is her fault, period. It does not matter if the reason was religious,or anything else. If she believes that a man cannot see her lips or hear her talk, fine that is her choice. But, she must then find a way to get an education within those paramaters. If there was a class that only allowed men, you would be swearing and name calling anyone who advocated that. What a non-thinking, one sided hypocrite you are.

by finerbiner on 03/16/2010 11:53:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]

You are suggesting that she is not entitled to an education based on her religious beliefs, and in so doing you are exactly the same as the Taliban who would prevent her from an education based on her religious beliefs.

 

(this is the reason we are slaughtering Taliban every day right?)

 

But you go one step further, If she relinquishes her beliefs and her Niqab, then you will agree to allow her an education. Nice... 

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 12:09:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]

the facts or are you just willfully ignoring what is written. Of course she has a right to education. the same as everyone else. What she does not have the right to do is disrupt the class to the point where every other student is negatively affected by her actions. Turn the tables on your nonsense stance. Would it be OK if I stated that my"religion" required that I only be taught by naked women with a bustline of 40+. Don't tell me I'm ridiculous because every religion is ridiculous to people who don't believe its tenants. Of course the school would just say OK we have to hire a large breasted teacher for this student. Right? Why didn't I think of this when I was in HS. Let me state again because I know you are having trouble, she has a right to an education. What she does not have the right to do is hinder every other student from having the same opportunity. She needs to find an all woman's school. Don't tell me this restricts her, she restricts herself. She has every right to her religious beliefs. She does not have the right to have there be NO consequence from her beliefs.

Lastly, what happened to you to make you so over the top nasty. Get some therapy.

by finerbiner on 03/16/2010 01:46:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think it is the schools responsibility to provide an education to their students regardless of their Faith.

 

What you are suggesting may seem like the logical thing in the short term, but there will be many other women in her position who are potentially being refused an education by this decision.

 

You don't win by forcing her to remove her Niqab, you win by educating her. That should be the priority.

 

These kinds of rejectionist policies are gathering all sorts of "righteous argument" to support them but they boil down to the same thing, intolerance.

 

I have seen far too many cold blooded attacks on Muslim clothing throughout Europe over the last few years to believe that this case is "Genuine". What is far more likely is that it is another opportunistic attempt to undermine the faith of these people by forcing them to abandon their religious convictions.

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 02:53:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
according to the first blog entry that enrolled in a school with males and then decided no males can hear her voice. I could sit here all day and dream up scenarios less outrageous that no school would put up with. Where does it end? She needs to take her classes on line. Class rooms are all about interaction. She refuses to interact. She is wrong not everyone else. If it was as simple as "can she cover her head" most on this forum would be on her side. You trying to make it that when it is clearly much more is repugnant.

by finerbiner on 03/16/2010 03:50:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]

She doesn't want to undermine her religious beliefs.... 

 Your Armies are in Afghanistan killing her brothers to give her the freedom to not wear the traditional dress, but if she chooses to wear it and abide by its traditions, then its too much trouble for you...

 Balls.... you dont find it too much trouble to go across the world with armies and slaughter thousands of people to defend her rights....  but when it comes to respecting her right to not compromise her faith, then you kick her out of your school.

 

This exposes the lie that we are in Afghanistan for personal freedoms, and the lie that she is just too much nuisance. Admit it its about Muslims and a prejudice against them.

 

 

 

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 08:35:40 AM EST

You act as though you're doing people such a HUGE favor but in fact complain about their lifestyle of THEIR CHOOSING. And of course their actions don't seem "racist" to you because what they're doing is political there are certain things they must (should) do to keep (pretenses) allies or not make enemies they can't fend themselves from.

Yes, targeting specific groups because within the examples you cited they were Jews...if you wanted to prove a point you should do better than this. I'm not convinced at all that you're no more better than us Americans you're bashing. But since you are bashing us you really ought to save it for another site, another forum.  

And what the heck do you mean by you're trying to protect your "culture"?? You're spouting a "conclusion" unrelated to what you're ranting about (because it IS just a rant).


 

by drwnednsense on 03/16/2010 10:05:07 AM EST

If a students repeatedly deny to participate in an exercise they get thrown out of the course. Because of political correctness the officials tried to bend over backwards to avoid that, the only response they got was that this woman demanded more and more extrem things.
For what?
If she is training as a pharmacist and knows that she will never be able to work as one, since she denies to interact with men, why bother with training at all, especially, when everybody else in the course suffers because of it?
They tried more than was reasonable to accomodate her wishes, at some point it has to be said that they were not able to sacrifice more.

"You act as though you're doing people such a HUGE favor but in fact complain about their lifestyle of THEIR CHOOSING"

What's that supposed to mean? If I choose a certain lifestyle everybody else has to do everything, so I can live this way? That's the uttermost crap I have ever heard.
Would you also be in favour to train some extrem Christians to become doctors, even though they are against blood transfusions or medicine?
Hey, why shouldn't they become doctors? Not prescribing medication is just a lifestyle they chose, right?

Please, read the OP again and tell me what would have happened to any other student who demands not to participate in exercises or exams. I assume they would just fail.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/16/2010 10:27:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]

She is not refusing to do the exercises, she is asking to do them in a way that respects her beliefs. 

 

"- A Hassidic Jew demanded to a female police officer who just pulled him over, that he would not speak to a police officer unless he was a male.  The police officer was requested by her superior to obbey to this demand.

- A young Sikh demanded to bring is Kirpah (A ceremonial knife) into classrooms.  Court ruled the school had to let him bring his knife into class while other kids with skulls on their shirt were being kicked out

 - A jew community demanded the windows facing the street of the local YWCA to be tinted so they wouldn't see women training while walking in the streets.  Government accepted and paid for it.  The list goes on and on, I think there are 5 or 6 other cases like these ones."

 

YES!! But the "Muslim" woman is NOT allowed to wear her Niqab.

 

"Would you also be in favour to train some extrem Christians to become doctors, even though they are against blood transfusions or medicine?
Hey, why shouldn't they become doctors? Not prescribing medication is just a lifestyle they chose, right?"

What relevance does this have at all... She wants to learn French... shes not going to open a suicide bomber medical center.

 

Instead of breeding intolerance and racial injustice try accepting the woman and the benefits she can bring to people in your community who agree with her principles.

 

At the end of the day this is just another swipe at the Muslim faith which are becoming all too common in the news around the world today. You can smear it with any number of "she's the one being intolerant" arguments, but Most civilized countries these days have sworn to respect the religious beliefs of all religions, and making exceptions when it comes to Muslims is simple racism and bigotry

 

 

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 11:18:06 AM EST

Are you so dumb... you just tell us ''She wants to learn French... '' HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU DO THAT IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE PERSON LIPS...... that's the only problem... no lifestyle no religion no patriotsm... just need a little be of good will

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 11:23:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If you enough stupid to train doctor that not going to do ALL medical acts, that's why you don't work in an university.

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 11:32:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
seriously, please continue to put your stupidity on the net, we need more ppl like you to what kind of dumb cunt you are.... don't be able to understand the simple fact that the teacher NEED to see her lips to be able to see if she use the good pronouciation... you have to be really dumb to mix that with religion, lifestyle or patriotsm. that's the same is somebody want to become a doctor but can't touch the blood of other ppl for religion or lifestyle is not going to be rejected because of that, only because HE CAN'T DO THE FUCKING JOB... HAVE YOU SEE A BLIND COP???

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 11:19:36 AM EST

Were you wearing a Niqab when you learned English?

What exactly was the problem you had? Maybe if someone had shown more compassion and spent some time taking you aside and giving you some personal attention you might have ended up with a decent grasp of the english Language yourself.

Then maybe you might have been able to be a benefit to those who agreed with your principles.

 

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 11:45:49 AM EST

miss the whole point of it all.  The problem is not and has never been the niqab.  If it was, she couldn't have attended to her class during 6 months.

 The problem is that she asked the men in class to be treated differently.  You have the freedom to believe in what you want, but your freedom of practicing this belief must come after the equality of men and women.

 And no, muslims are not specificly targeted, a lot of accomodations have been put in place so they can practice their religion in Quebec and I'm not going to list them all.  If you knew the bare minimum relative to this topic you would know that in 2008 the government commanded a year long audience where people could come and say what they didn't like about the tens of accomodations that had been put in place.

 You're talking about intolerance, how is she not intolerant toward her male classmates who, during 6 months, accepted her requests? Quebeckers may live in the state/province of North America which is the less religious of them all because they kicked Christianity out of the door 40-50 years ago, but they know one thing about religion : Religion is a motivation to be tolerant, not an excuse to be intolerant.

 

by Piid on 03/16/2010 12:53:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I think that the reality here is this is a continuation of the assault against the Muslim womans right to wear whatever she feels comfortable in.

For several years now the news media around the world has been dripping with stories of this and that institution refuse the rights of Muslim women to wear their  traditional clothing.

 

This is just another slight against them, dressed up to look pretty with a heaped serving of  "you cant learn anything unless I can see your lips" drenched across the top of it.

 

And you are happily buying into the deception. Your comment "how is she not intolerant toward her male classmates" shows your complete lack of empathy to her and those like her.....   She is not even considering any sort of intolerance towards anyone, she is simply trying to remain true to her Faith.

 

 

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 01:18:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

You miss the point,

 She was not kicked out because they didn't like the way she was dressed.  They ask her to follow the course online because she asked men to be remove of the course because they were facing her and because after that, she wouldn't remove her burqa not even a second in privacy with the teacher, a thing that had apparently nothing wrong with her faith a week before.

 As you say, she should be allowed to wear whatever she feels comfortable in, and she is.  All that the government asks is that she removes it, in privacy, for 2-3 minutes, so the teacher can help her better.  Is that so in contradiction with her religion?  Is that really so much to ask for to someone you're giving so much?

 And don't get started on institutions prosecuting religious clothings. If you had read what I first posted, you would know Quebec is the only part in the western world crazy enough to let a kid go to school with a knife so he can, as you say, stay true to his faith.

by Piid on 03/16/2010 01:56:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"Her female teacher was accommodating, she said, telling her she could sit in the front of the class with the men behind her so that if she did need to lift the veil when speaking, only the teacher would see her. The compromise worked well, and Naema said she was happy. During group discussions, she wore her niqab and spoke loudly so people could hear her.

It was only when officials from the province's immigration ministry visited the class that she was asked to stop wearing the niqab altogether. When she refused, they told her she could no longer attend the course."

 

 So all was going well until the govt intervened and demanded she take off her Niqab....  That's a little different from what you have been stating.... And far more like what I was expecting to be the truth in the matter.

 

And this version explains why She was successfully completing the course for more than 6 months before it became an issue...

 

Yes I know, you have already told me that its ok for Jewish citizens to demand that people wearing work-out clothing must do so behind tinted windows, And that Jewish citizens dont have to speak to female police officers at all, and that its ok for Indian students to carry knives at school....  

Its just not ok for a Muslim woman to cover her face ...

 

It's racial/religious discrimination.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/mo ntreal/story/2010/03/03/mon treal-woman-with-niqab-feel s-treated-unfairly.html

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 03:14:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

if this article would report the truth. But as I said previously all the French reports of this and all the English reports of this suggest very different things.  If in fact as it is said in the article you link, the government visited the room and broke all accomodations, that would be outrageous and I would be on your side.  If they had succeeded in accomodating her and the government broke it all, it's clearly the government fault, not hers, and she should be allowed back into school instantly.

 But as I originately said, what I'm a little pissed about is that the English media only reports what they wanna report.  I'm gonna link you here the French version from the French counterpart of CBC that they "translated".

 http://www.radio-canada.ca/ nouvelles/Politique/2010/03 /02/003-quebec_niqab.shtml

 If you can get a french friend to translate it for you, he would tell you exactly what I originately posted : that she was expelled after asking other men to be move away from the class and after she decided refusing lifting her niqab just for the teacher.  Then AFTER the school went to government.

 I know 9 out of 10 english media you will find will tell the same thing as the CBC and that's why I took the time to translate the story that really happened that Toronto's media doesn't want to report because... well because they don't like us.

 And seriously, which school, let alone a cegep which is a sort of transition between high school and university, is being visited by government representatives?  I don't know for you but I have never seen it.

by Piid on 03/16/2010 06:24:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
1st stupid ppl like you who can't understand the basic of learning, like be able to see the lips when you learn a new language. 

2nd I can see you have no good new point and didn't respond to: HAVE YOU SEEN A BLIND COP??? Bilnd is NOT a religion and NOT a lifestyle but we all know that a blind person can't be a cop or a doctor only because HE CAN'T DO THE JOB, what do you not understand in that simple fact?

3rd Can you make just one complete sentences in french? (BTW why I should have a ''decent grasp of the english Language'' (I like you writing skills ;P) for a stupid bigot like you? you just have hate for what you don't and can't understand and you show us how ignorant you are.

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 01:02:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thats all I have to say about that!

by icarrion on 03/16/2010 01:20:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
well I see you can say anything more to say except stupid comment on assaulting musilm (IRONY!!!!!!!) please stay where you are in your islamic republic thank you, we really don't need narrow minded ppl like you

by Johnny1983 on 03/16/2010 01:31:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
the apologists would have a point if it was only about dresscode. but let's not fool ourselves. the niqab isn't simply a dress.
it's a(-n adopted) religious item, a sociopolitical statement
.

an what is the statement exactly? i'm breaking no secret: women are inequal to men, they must be the modest ones, they're not righteous people as long as they are uncovered. they need to cover themselves as not to be insulted/attacked [acc. to qu'ran: 24.31 and 33:59]

my understanding of a free and equal society is diametrically opposed to that doctrine.


patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - mark twain

by EauDeCologne on 03/16/2010 06:25:34 PM EST

Nobody cared about that. In Canada people are free to make every religious or sociopolitical s5tatement they seem fit. It seems this isn't even restricted to schools.

My understanding of a free and equal society is that I'm also free to consider myself inequal, to forfit rightsand to be modest.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/17/2010 01:36:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]
No sir, You don't care, please be honest, a lot of people don't want religion in public affairs. The development, implementation and study of branches of government policy. The pursuit of the public good by enhancing civil society, ensuring a well-run, fair, and effective public services. I'm sorry sir but do be fool by the woman, the only thing she promote is isalmic propaganda

by Johnny1983 on 03/17/2010 01:43:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So, what? Just let her. If she was in my class she wouldn't have convinced me of anything. A civil society should be strong enough to be able to live with people promoting Islam, fascism, Satanism...
Her rights end only where mine begin. If she makes it impossible to teach in this course, she can't attend the course anymore. Until this oint she can wear (and believe) whatever she wants.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 01:25:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If I follow your crazy logic you can be friend with Hilter too you know this guy he got a lot of idea to ''promote'' in a civil society... you are just dumb

BTW "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious."... SO WHAT?

by Johnny1983 on 03/20/2010 02:20:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
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