Worst Case Scenario On HC Reform & Poll

Note: I currently don't have health insurance (BTW, I have sleep apnea for which I had surgery a couple of years ago) and as I discussed recently on TYT, my Girlfriend was just denied for a pre-existing condition. She's a 29 year old non-smoker who's not overweight, but she has a common digestive problem that affects 10-15% of Americans. There are no medications she can take or surgeries to have and all the necessary tests have already been done (it's non-fatal), so I can't imagine what expense BlueCross BlueShield of IL was worried about.

Poll: "...only 33 percent of likely voters favor a health care bill that does not include a public health insurance option and does not expand Medicare, but does require all Americans to get health insurance. Slightly more Democrats -- 37 percent -- favor the idea...

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent..."

I've been arguing for some time that the worst case scenario is to pass a half-assed bill/corporate giveaway and call it reform to placate the masses and score political points in the short run. If this bill passes, the right will STILL pretend it's a Big Government, Socialist, Radical Liberal/Progressive plan when that couldn't be further from the truth.

The R's are fighting against this now for all the wrong reasons, but it's a political wet dream for them if it passes because of the mandate, lack of competition and strengthening of the current system. Even the subsidies that some are cheering about will provide amazing political fodder for Republicans to rile up their base (and even many moderates/independents), not to mention the fact that they'll be easy 'cut' targets when the R's return to power at some point. When the "reform" inevitably fails to reduce costs long term, the average American will be rightfully disgusted. The right will pounce (followed by the MSM as always) and blame a failure of liberalism and government intervention (directly and indirectly). If recent history is any indication, existing Dems will feel compelled to move further right to stay in office, and progressives and progressive solutions will be even further marginalized.

That means our goal of changing the underlying problems with our healthcare system will be even further away than it is now because while the public pressure you expect would probably come, it would likely be directed at decreasing the role of government, thus ultimately strengthening insurance companies by removing the only check we have against corporate power. Best case is it would return us to what we have now for another 2 decades, and when reform is tried in the future, everyone will point to the failure of Government and Progressive ideas. This is why I reject the argument that passing the bill now provides a base to improve upon. The base sucks, meaning it will only decrease the political will to do actual improvements in the future, because again, even moderates will start to believe inevitable arguments that government/liberal intervention only made things worse. Finally, anyone pointing to Social Security and Medicare as a case for incrementalism ignores the enormous difference in the political climate, media and level of special interest influence then Vs. today.

PS---Out of 100: "...The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S..." - The Business Roundtable Report On Healthcare, 2009 (Represents Top CEOs).

It's not about "purity" or "ideology", it's about what's been proven to work in numerous other countries (and which could easily work here with adjustments), despite what our president claims.

< Health Care Reform Round 2 | Fact Sheet: Myths and the Truth About The Health Care Bill >
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In 200 years you will finally have a 20th century first world (some 3rd worlds have it certainly 2nd world) health care system. I'm going to be laughing from up north from now, (if they accept me that is, if not I will try Spain since I got a few family members there). I don't see this thing getting revisited without also adding more republican BS therefore making it worse and the liberals getting blamed solely for it (they should get their share though). This incrementalist BS will work until the Republicans regain control of things, then they jam whatever they want in 2 fucking years making this thing a complete waste of time. I’m really sad about not allowing drug importation; you guys got screwed on that.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 08:33:33 PM EST

Are you in Canada? As for the "reform" working in the short run, the subsidies will help and the pre-existing condition ban will help (on paper, but the cynic in me assumes there are loopholes).

And yes, it's a short term political win. But the bottom line for me is that I only care about political wins if they translate to policy wins. Unfortunately that hasn't happened on any major issue I can think of, and I don't see it happening any time soon.

by Tom Hanc on 03/17/2010 08:39:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Made it seem I was already in, I'm in the process of applying for citizenship in Canada. There are loopholes as you they can't deny you insurance on the exchange but outside they can. And I even doubt that, we both know the lack of balls the US government has when it comes to enforcing regulations.

The short term win won't even be that big but the long term damage this will cause leftist ideals will be huge. Unless they actually do come back and alter the shit out of this bill which is doubtful since they didn't have the balls for it in the first place.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 09:03:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]

...laugh at us about the fact that our country is screwed because the people we voted for decided to stab us in the back and we have basically no power or recourse to keep from going bankrupt and/or dying?

If you would like to laugh at us for that, for some reason, can you at least do so on a website where people are not completely pissed about imminently taking the blame for a bill that none of us like?  Can you go to a site where their short-sightedness about insurance reform might actually warrant some derisive laughter?  There are plenty of places dominated by delusional corporatists who think they are saving America by trying to stop the "radical Leftist takeover of Health Care".  Go laugh at them, or better, try to educate a few of them.

Not every one of us can move up to Canada and laugh at how pathetic America has become.  I'm more than a little bit vexed by your amusement. 

by Milltycoon on 03/18/2010 01:31:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You guys can blow up the world 500 times over, that’s more than Canada can say.

Do I feel bad for the common American just getting fucked everyday? Yup, not as bad as I feel for people in the 3 world but yeah kind of bad. However this whole system America has going is funny except this place is starting to affect the rest of the world even when it’s not invading something.

Right now I'm in the same boat as you guys (just trying to swim to shore), and hey I might be denied citizenship so who knows I might not go anywhere. However even if I’m in the boat with you guys I would still be laughing at this place, that’s just me.

by Alloy on 03/18/2010 02:10:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward." - Kurt Vonnegut

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 02:24:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Love Vonnegut, based on his last few books I get the feeling he was going a lot of laughing towards the end. 

by alphasigmookie on 03/18/2010 10:45:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks for giving me a good reason to smile, remembering my favorite author...now, as much as I dont want to wish my life away....the retirement in Belgium is sounding soooo good.

"Life's rich demand creates supply in the hands of the power, the only vote that matters." --James Michael Stipe, from Begin the Begin.

by Hamsterdam on 03/22/2010 02:33:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Which then gave me the broader Horizon to also have a passion for Shakespeare. Shakespeare, Blake, Vonnegut....I couldnt pick a favorite book, play, poem or sonnet amongst them, each fills a niche in my intellectual, and imaginative curiosity.

"Life's rich demand creates supply in the hands of the power, the only vote that matters." --James Michael Stipe, from Begin the Begin.

by Hamsterdam on 03/22/2010 02:39:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My 85 yr old mother broke her hip last summer. The operation, hardware, 10 days in hospital, 5 weeks in elderly rehab facility. Cost $38 (for the phone in her room.) Yes, there are problems, overcrowding, delays, people abusing the system, I don't deny that, but still, I'll take our system over yours any day.

by fgoyeau on 03/17/2010 09:50:55 PM EST

Are you going to talk about this on-air?

by jgraz on 03/17/2010 10:07:44 PM EST

ihavenobias' post is a very sound, sensible prediction - but it is a prediction, and a political prediction.  Those can be notoriously wrong.  I hope it's wrong in this case.

If the prediction is correct, then in the next round (Round #2 we'll call it) the reform to the reform will move toward less government intervention and more freedom for health insurance companies and other medical industry companies.  According to the liberal prediction, those changes will make the situation even MORE DISASTROUS than it is now and will be after Round #1.   In that case, Round #3 will swing back to national single payer and all of our dreams will be met.

I am confused as to how this is going to work. So let's say you are an individual and you go to apply for health insurance, and the form asks you for your current health. As it turns out, you have cancer and three other diseases, which you write down on the form.  After all, they still have to cover you. No exclusions due to pre-existing conditions.  What the hell is the insurance company going to do? Let me assure you (time for my prediction) that theinsurance company is not going to pay your medical bills for the cancer and three other diseases you have, unless they set your premium at something like $15,000 per month.  I just don't know how this is going to work.

David  

by yturks on 03/17/2010 10:42:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

So far there have still been very few articles in the MSM describing exactly how the new healthcare system would work and what exactly it does.  From what I'm able to piece together your cancer patient example would be handled the following way:

Cancer pateint A buys insurance from company B.  They cannot be denied coverage and cannot be charged extra for their pre-existing condition.  Company B's aggregate risk goes up and thus their cost go up. 

This cost increase is dealt with in 2 ways.  First the mandate within the bill increases the number of people in the insurance pool, spreading the risk over more people paying premiums.  The second way is there is a mechanism for risk adjustment (I don't think this is the right term, but I forget what it is).  Basically it works sort of like the luxury tax in baseball.  All insurance companies pay into a risk pool and those funds are redistributed based upon the risk profile of the different individual companies.  Thus companies that have mostly low risk patients pay more into the system than they get back.  Companies with more high risk individuals will get more money back than they pay in.  It is supposed to be a way to remove or at least decrease the incentive for insurance companies to deny care to unhealthy individuals.  

by alphasigmookie on 03/18/2010 11:04:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]

The fact that Dave doesn't understand why mandates are in the bill infuriates me. 

We want universal health insurance coverage in the United States. 

To get there we need to reform the insurance industry. 

Let's outlaw pre-existing conditions and rescission. 

Fine, but if you do that wouldn't people just wait until they are sick to buy insurance? 

Yes, so there must be an individual mandate. 

Is that fair to require people to purchase insurance?  What if they can't afford it?

We will provide subsidies and expand already existing programs to help people out.

Wow, that's going to cost  a lot of money.

We will pay for these reforms completely by reducing costs in Medicare and raising new taxes.  In fact this plan will save us $1.3 trillion dollars

And America becomes a country with universal health insurance coverage, and we get more coverage for less money?

Yup.

Let's do it.

by publius on 03/18/2010 06:25:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
No he wasn't and everybody at the time new he was being unrealistic.

by publius on 03/18/2010 08:36:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree he was wrong if he meant a mandate was a bad idea in the context of a single payer type system.

But he was spot-on that a mandate without a strong public option/Medicare-buy-in/sing le payer system is bullshit that should rightfully outrage people.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 08:52:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
the malicious mandate punishes working-class people who cannot afford health coverage now. this "reform" wil l force cuts into their food/housing budget to meet the federal requirement. good for the health denier ceo's who will get a piece of that action! whoohoo! great job obama! i'm so thrilled.

oh right...the subsidies. just what i always wanted, to grow up and be a begger for the man...fucking awesome!

*back-door public option; pay annual punitive public fine for not having private insurance, and use emergency room liberally.

~majority.fm

by mauirising on 03/19/2010 02:09:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Calm down Publius, of course I understand the need for mandates, or the argument for it. What I didn't understand is how it will work. Alphasig's response was an excellent explanation.  However, I'd like to be able to read whatever alphasig was reading.

David

by yturks on 03/18/2010 08:20:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That was the self-censored and "calmed down" version of that post :)

by publius on 03/18/2010 08:39:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree Dave, frankly my biggest complaint throughout this whole process has been the lack of transparency and clear explanations of what this bills does.  My post was based on my understanding that I have had to piece together from what I've read here and there along with some targeted google searches.  Here are a few links that give at least some explanation:

Link 1

Link 2

by alphasigmookie on 03/19/2010 01:00:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Mandates put the burden on the poor.  Taxation spreads the cost more fairly.

People keep forgetting that a dollar means a lot more to a poor person than it does to a rich person.  That memory lapse is why we have an effectively regressive tax system today.  It's also why people think mandates are a good idea.

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2010 09:15:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Wow, how to begin on this. This country has ways of progressing to things you wouldn't expect, at a pace which is sluggish, but there also have been many things in my 46 yr old lifetime that have went backwards at the same time. I never thought I would see a time where stupidity is worn like a badge. 

How to know how this will shell out... One thing I will say, if progressive salesmanship doesn't improve drastically, and if we do not unite as the teabaggers did to demand what we voted for, my guess this will be the "moving backward" aspects of our lives and culture I mentioned earlier.                                                                                                                                   Damn Democrats.... we had all the tools we needed, except the spine.

"Life's rich demand creates supply in the hands of the power, the only vote that matters." --James Michael Stipe, from Begin the Begin.

by Hamsterdam on 03/22/2010 02:48:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't get the liberal blogosphere.

Why isn't this video, starting at 1:40, being played all over the liberal shows?  (Maybe it is.)

Republican Congressman Shadegg goes all the way around to making a great case for the liberal vision of health care reform.

http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=3M8TYkFTM2Q

David

by yturks on 03/17/2010 11:29:52 PM EST

FDL: Health Insurance Rate Review Authority Kicked Out of House Reconciliation Bill

"In a completely obvious maneuver, the Senate parliamentarian has kicked out the Health Insurance Rate Authority from the reconciliation set of fixes. The national rate reviewer would have had the ability to cancel premium increases across the country, in association with state regulators. But it has no primary budgetary impact, so out it goes." 

You can also read more here.

 

 

by Tom Hanc on 03/17/2010 11:35:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They save some of the best kicks to the nuts for the end.

by Alloy on 03/18/2010 12:01:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Of course the original was on MSNBC so it is no surprise, but Rachel Maddow did a decent segment on this very interview last night.  I am surprised it hasn't gotten more play though. 

by alphasigmookie on 03/18/2010 10:54:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If it collapses, then we will all be right back where we were under Bush. In the end, Obama will not lose on this issue. He will lose if he cannot get legislation passed that will reduce the chronicly high unemployment rate. If he can manage to stay in office 2 terms, then this monstrosity will have a chance to be improved.

by mmosespt on 03/18/2010 12:19:28 AM EST

of course we all hope it will do some good. But the whole point of my post was to explain that if the "reform" fails to deliver on the hopes and promises (in the minds of most Americans), we will be much worse off than if nothing at all were to pass because future reform efforts will prove to be even more difficult than they are now.

I could copy and paste my explanation, but of course you could just scroll to the top of this page.

;)

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 12:56:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The Republicans are going to beat Obama to death with this legislation.  It's a crummy program.  It rips off the taxpayers while continuing to allow the insurance companies to control our health care finance system.

2014 is a fantasy.

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2010 09:25:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Only 3% of liberals oppose this Health Care Reform bill.

I think that kind of number speaks for itself.

Congrats to Dennis Kucinich on seeing the light.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 06:58:53 AM EST

I have a blog on the front page of DU right now dealing with that very issue:

I have to remind some of this December poll which is much more relevant than the already infamous "3% poll" that ignores the fact that (apparently) most liberals who support the current healthcare reform bill don't know what's in it. At least that's the only way to explain the enormous discrepancy between the below numbers and the 3% talking point.

"...only 33 percent of likely voters favor a health care bill that does not include a public health insurance option and does not expand Medicare, but does require all Americans to get health insurance. Slightly more Democrats -- 37 percent -- favor the idea...

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent..."

Poll: Voters Reject Health Care Mandate Without Public Option, Medicare Buy-In

Or maybe people believe (incorrectly, as I explained here) that this will build a solid foundation to improve upon.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 01:13:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
your rebuttal is basically that Liberals are stupid?

Look, this poll is similiar to the poll amongst MoveOn members that I posted about last week, which was 83-17 (and would likely be even a bigger spread now).

I understand that you don't support the bill, although it seems imo to be based on talking points and not substance, but this is not something that's subjective to debate.  It's a fact that Liberals overwhelmingly back the passage of this bill now.

Btw, the lone progressive holdout, Luis Guitterez, has now committed to voting Yes for this bill - which seems likely to happen at noon on Sunday.  Which means the only people voting against this bill will be Republicans and Conservadems.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 05:53:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]

There's a big difference between well informed individuals who take time out each day or week to read, listen or watch good sources of information on important topics and the average Joe (Republican or Democrat). I assume you're well aware of that undeniable fact.

So I'm amused at the distortion "liberals are stupid" attempt. Let's have the exact same poll on if people support a bill with a mandate and without a public option/Medicare buy-in. What makes you think the average person out there is aware that the current bill is in fact a mandate without a public option/Medicare buy-in, etc.? At any rate I unsubscribed from MoveOn precisely because they were backing this POS bill, and I assume I'm not the only one. So the fact that remaining MoveOn members support the bill is not surprising, especially since MoveOn has sent out messages focusing on positive aspects and ripping (BS) Republican talking points, etc. So let's talk about some real polls (source: McClatchy).

Don't buy the spin: public is still split over health care proposal

"When you hear Republicans and talk show hosts say the country is overwhelmingly opposed to the health care legislation pending in Congress, don’t believe it.

And when you hear Democrats say momentum is building in recent weeks for the proposal, don’t believe that, either.

The fact is, the American public is pretty evenly divided over the proposal, as it’s been for months. Oh, there have been slight moves, with each side rising or dropping a few percentage points. But most reputable polls show the country split.

The new NBC-Wall Street Journal, a widely respected poll conducted jointly by a Democratic pollster and a Republican pollster, this week finds 36 percent think the Obama plan is a good idea, while 48 percent think it’s a bad idea.

(Another 15 percent still have no opinion – watch these people, they could decide this fall’s elections for control of Congress if they vote.)

The overall divided is very similar to the numbers last July, before the August town hall meetings that showcased a lot of anger at the proposal. Then, 36 percent thought the proposal was good idea and 42 percent thought it was a bad idea.

There has been an increase in opposition since spring. Since last April, support has risen from 33 percent to 36 percent, while opposition has risen from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But the ranks of those who think it’s a bad idea has never topped 50 percent in the poll – hardly overwhelming. And the numbers overall have been all but stuck for months – hardly the momentum the White House claims...

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 06:56:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I found my way to that NBC/WSJ poll and found this:

"At the same time, Democratic voters strongly favor the legislation being pushed by President Barack Obama, particularly constituencies such as blacks, Latinos and self-described liberals".

So, thanks for reaffirming what I said.  Liberals "strongly favor" the passage of this bill.

Also, self-described liberals and/or MoveOn members don't tend to be low-information voters like the average joe.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 07:46:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree about MoveOn Members, but again, a lot of the stronger progressives left in the last year in light of the lack of pressure on this administration over the war, Bush Admin prosecution, and now healthcare.

And again, there is no reason to believe the the 3%/89% poll reflects a majority of self described liberals who are aware that the bill has a mandate and no public option. People are so desperate for reform (understandably) that they're willing to hope against hope that this watered down bullshit will help, or be improved upon at some point. A LOT of people are incredibly half-hearted in their "support" for this bill, arguing that half a loaf of moldy bread is better than no bread.

Sorry, but this DLC "Centrist" type of bullshit brought us NAFTA and deregulation under Clinton. The same combination of corporatists,"centrist s", low information voters, Dem. partisans and true believers will help support this bill. And yes, some intelligent people (RJ Eskow) who simply interpret things differently and see a base to be improved upon support this bill.

But 10 years from now we're going to look back (just like we did with NAFTA and deregulation) and wonder what the fuck happened. And I sincerely hope I'm wrong, you have to understand that point. I'm not rooting for failure, especially since my personal situation will be dire if that ends up being the case. I'd rather read a message from you reading "I told you so" while enjoying affordable, solid insurance coverage.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 08:08:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"A LOT of people are incredibly half-hearted in their "support" for this bill, arguing that half a loaf of moldy bread is better than no bread."

This I agree with.  In fact, that is close to my position.  I think all liberals support the public option, expanded medicare, and/or single-payer.

But, look, we live in reality not a video game. Look at the Whip count going on in the House right now.  It's a struggle to get to the 216 in the more progressive chamber for this bill, with all the opposition coming from the Right.  Do you really think we would get to 216 adding the public option?  We had to outlaw abortion just to get it (and a weak version at that) past the first hurdle by like 2 votes.  

That's why you've seen Markos, MoveOn, and liberals as whole move so much since December.  That's how it works, you fight, fight, fight then at some point you gotta go with what you got.  We didn't get everything, but we did get a lot.  We won the most important point - that Health Care is a right and not a priviledge.

Also, this is just not comparable to NAFTA in anyway whatsover.  I just wrote the post "You're Not A Progressive If You're Not Pro-Union".  I'm sure you can guess my position on that, as well as what I'm sure Markos, MoveOn and progressives as whole would be.  Progressives don't support NAFTA and didn't support it then.  However, we do support the passage of this bill.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 08:41:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

While there are several factors motivating people into supporting this bill, don't underestimate partisan politics. I used to think that applied more to the Republicans, but I've learned over the last year that's not the case.

A LOT of people are partly or largely influenced by the fact that Republicans are (or appearing to in some cases, more on that later) and nut-job right wingers are fighting against healthcare reform. You know, smearing it with buillshit about death panels, abortion, socialism, communism, government takeover, etc.

That makes liberals much more inclined to support the reform (regardless of the actual merits of the bill), and the same goes with many moderate Dems who are already inclined to believe in compromise, etc. Granted, some moderates get scared by the right wing rhetoric, but you get my point.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 09:04:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We'll see how much your -- and others' -- support for this bill helps Democrats in November.  Most of you are supporting this legislation because you're afraid not to.  You're afraid or what would have happened to Democrats if the bill hadn't been passed, and you're not thinking what will happen because it has been passed.

What's worse is that you're not thinking about what will happen to the country because of the passage of this bill.  Mounting national and personal debt.  Growing poverty and disparity of income between the rich and the poor.  And thousands still dying for no other reason than that they don't have enough money.

And you call yourself a "liberal."

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2010 10:39:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
is a massive income distribution to the poor.  Out of the 32 million that will get insurance, 16 million of them are from the expansion of Medicaid (public insurance) and CHIP from which most of money is coming from eliminating Medicare Advantage (private insurance subsidized by the public) and additional taxes on those making over 200k.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/22/2010 08:48:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The poor are not the people who get the money.  This program is a massive redistribution of wealth to the wealthy via the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

It's that particular denial that causes me to have the most disrespect for you.

by EveningStarNM on 03/23/2010 01:05:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll get over the lack of respect from a retard.

It's a fact that 16 of the 32 new insureds will be on Medicaid or CHIP according to the CBO.  It's a fact the vast majority of the spending goes to lower income individuals and is raised from raising the Medicare taxes on individuals making over 200,000.

I'm right, you're wrong.  Deal with it.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/23/2010 06:39:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Good assessment of the situation. In my opinion the failure of instituting a single payer or public option was the nail in the coffin on this bill.

I just had a recent debate in a forum regarding making the health care industry non-profit, or at least some form of that. Through out that debate there was no way to refute the points that it would provide a superior health care system for all those involved. That's why we cannot come anywhere near that.

So to come back to your point the "progressives" WILL run right, but it won't be because of voters. It'll be because of the profit motive in the industry.  I'm not personally an all or nothing guy, so I understand how some people would like to believe this is a good step. So to play devil's advocate here on your prediction let me ask a question. Because of the subsidies there are going to be a large portion of americans who will end up paying less overall, why wouldn't that play a factor in the public perception of the bill and grant more public support to pass something stronger in the near future?

 

"DO NOT PURSUE LU BU" - LifeEnder

by clout2k on 03/18/2010 10:59:47 AM EST

And then a Republican will be elected President.

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2010 10:44:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Tom has many good points. I believe his genuine concern cause i know that he and others who have apprehension to this bill have best intentions. I to want to be, but cannot be. I want the bill to pass. It will do enough good things. Also I truly believe in the current political situation , Pres O needs a win. And hes going to need more of them over the next few years. The alternative, the Republicans, are just to wrong on every issue every time to bother considering them. One day , soon I hope, the progressive movement will grow more than it is to create a larger more influential part of democratic party. I cannot, though be on the side of GOP, nor be used to bolster their arguments, people like Jane Hamsher, whom i respect, are being used by right.

by gmo418 on 03/18/2010 08:35:21 PM EST

One could argue that people caving in to supporting this brutal bill are the ones "being used by the right". You know, because the bill has been so severely watered down by the right and corporate interests.

As much as they pretend to pass this bill, they're licking their chops over it, just like the insurance industry. I'll have a new blog on that today or tomorrow.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 08:59:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It will be so easy to sell this bill over doing nothing.  

by kylewis on 03/21/2010 11:30:16 PM EST

Are you talking about a political win or an actually long term policy win?

by Tom Hanc on 03/22/2010 02:03:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
a punch in the nose is 'doing something' too. i would buy not being punched in the nose.
not having hcr might kill me over time, but the mandate will kill me faster.

~majority.fm

by mauirising on 03/22/2010 05:04:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I know this is now a moot issue and this thread is dead, but I'll add in my 2 cents anyways. It appears things are even more dire than you've said, since believe it or not things got worse, not better, in the final version vis a vie this issue, the mandate.

I imagine it went something like this, when it moved to the Senate, someone very liberal wanted to get rid of the mandate, they couldn't, since as Publius points out, it is nefariously at the heart of the entire law, though it has been talked about as a side issue. Not being able to strike it they tried to soften it. Added in provisions, you couldn't go to jail, it wouldn't kick in until 2014 and since it was (and is an IRS issue) wouldn't affect you until 2015 at the earliest. There were also other provisions, with caps for the amount of the fine, something like $750 a year. The idea of healthcare has been to classify it in terms of gold, silver and bronze plans. So the $750 figure wasn't just pulled from someone's ass but rather a figure based upon the lowest level of min. care provided from the lowest level of bronze care.

Now my guess is, at some point, they hewed far closer to the house plan, and they completely stripped the mandate. Then either it was a sticking point and got traded for something like someone wanting restrictions on abortions or it somehow or another became a political football and it was given up. So they changed the name of it, from individual mandate to "shared responsibility" and added it back in, but this time with virtually no provisions. So that it was prolly tacked on at the end, but ironically is even more conservative than the original senate version, which at least had mention of the poverty line.

The provision about the fact that you can't go to jail for the fines has been stripped. As has any talk of a poverty line or a cap. It starts at 2.5 percent of your yearly income, and it is still an IRS issue, meaning they will take that off of any refund you would have been getting.

The logic being if you have a refund you should have made an allowance for health care and the gov is being an unwilling task master to make you do what you should have had the common sense to do. But it is essentially a flat tax that will hurt those making very little much worse. A "welfare" mom with 5 kids who can't afford to insure them, feels guilty about it, but now loses the monthly bus fare money she used to take them to the free clinic. And that 2.5 percent is multiplied, so for her it would be 12.5 percent of her income.

Oh well, the fight is over. What's done is done.

Whatever you do, don't click this link (studies show you're more likely if you shouldn't)

by tiggerporn on 03/24/2010 02:53:57 PM EST

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