07/27/2010 10:30:47 AM EST

H.R. 5741 Universal National Service Act = Mandatory Military Service??

posted by nastrodamus

Universal National Service Act - Serve OR ELSE?

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First here is the bill:

http://www.govtrack.us/cong ress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111 -5741

Now basically if I read this correctly THIS is saying that all citizens between 18-42 would be required to serve 2 years "as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security".  Is this there way of circumventing a draft? Is this like a form of servitude? Maybe we will become indentured servants? Right now this is in the committee of Armed Services and doesn't have a co-sponsor yet but this is something that we should keep a watch on in the future. I am not sure if this has been posted on the site but something moved me to post it and inform people about this bill.

I am not quite sure what to think about this bill. There is so much power in this and it can create even more of a war machine than we already have now. You think defense spending is high now wait until they pull in the masses for Universal Service in "PROTECTION" of the Homeland.

I am not saying I would not serve ON MY OWN what I am saying is I would like that to be MY CHOICE and not the governments choice to abuse and misuse in any fashion they please.

< Question about Wikileaks (sorry if this is a dumb ?) | Obama could destroy Beck and Limbaugh if he would just do this. >

Poll

Should U.S. Citizens Be Required to do "Mandatory" Military or Civilian Service?
Yes - They Should Be Required into Service 23%
No - They Should Not Be Required to Service 71%
Maybe - If the Time Was Less Than 2 Years 4%

Votes: 21
Results | Other Polls
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H.R. 5741 Universal National Service Act = Mandatory Military Service?? | 39 comments (39 topical, 0 hidden)
I would (none / 0)
I would gladly serve if it were mandatory.  Many countries do require it.  I would rather citizens, not hired mercenaries (Blackwater, etc.), performed the defense and security duties for our country.  Our current system that relies on "independent contractors" is just a way of avoiding a draft.

by high5apparatus on 07/27/2010 10:52:44 AM EST

Bad News (none / 1)
Your going to end up in Iran if this thing passes. The bill passes, millions of Americans are thrown into brainwashing camps, and your off to wage another war of aggression for Israel and the military industrial complex.

by Young Turk 87 on 07/27/2010 01:27:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Not true (none / 1)
First of all, there are no "brainwashing camps".  That sounds like a Glenn Beck fantasy (like his FEMA camps).  If the goal of boot camp was to brainwash recruits, then it would have to be considered a miserable failure, since the military servicemembers that I have known are all independent thinkers.

Second, U.S. foreign policy toward Iran will not be affected by the outcome of whether this bill passes.  The only effect will be that the Army and Marines will have less trouble meeting their recruiting goals.  Since the minimum service requirement will be only two years, instead of the standard four-year enlistment, the effect of more people serving for a shorter time will only create a slight increase in the overall size of our armed forces.

The biggest problem with this bill is that it is being considered during a time when we are fighting two wars at the same time.  It will have virtually the same effect as the draft, where more non-volunteers will be sent to die in war.  The civilian service option must be clearly defined, because otherwise it will be just another draft.

by USNavyVet on 07/27/2010 05:25:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Checks and Balance (none / 0)
Should there be a check against the President increasing the enlistment all willy nilly from 2 years to 4 years or 8 years or as long as "whatever" is happening?

by nastrodamus on 07/27/2010 05:59:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
True (none / 0)
On the first point, there will be brainwashing camps on military bases when war with Iran comes. The drum up to this war in the coming years is going to be ridiculous. Israel has never been pushing as hard as it is today for war with Iran. Its going to happen.

Christian fundamentalism will takeover within the US military. Its become increasingly pervasive within the Pentagon and on US bases. There are plans to build several more huge tax payer funded megachurches on US bases where christian fundamentalists and christian zionists set the narrative of the war in terms of the religious angle.

On the second point, a war with Iran will involve a major ground force component. Israel will be protected at all costs even if it destroys the country.

The bill needs to be more clearly defined. I have no doubt that this administration or the next will want to go to war with Iran, and will find a way to make this bill work to their advantage in some way.

by Young Turk 87 on 07/27/2010 06:15:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure (none / 0)
The way that I've always heard about bills like this, it was not mandatory military, but some kind of public service, like maybe teaching or even planting trees or whatnot.  I'm not sure what to think of this bill.

Or rather I do.  If it means a wide variety of "service", then I might support it.  If it means purely military, I would not.

A wire in the fire room

by blueheartinaredstate on 07/27/2010 11:09:53 AM EST

As I read it (none / 0)
The bill creates a lottery. If you lose the lottery, you go into the military. If you win the lottery, you go into civilian service.

by Corpusless on 07/27/2010 06:50:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
orrrrr. and this is just an idea (none / 0)

you can say fuck you obama and just not do as your told

maybe pick up a fire arm and resist those trying to force their ideals and force you to become all rootin tootin patriotic.

just sayin

by moediggity on 07/27/2010 07:05:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Service (none / 0)
I am not necessarily against it BUT I don't know how the mandatory portion would work and IF it would be fair. I know this is done in other countries but I don't want the "haves" to be able to weasel out and the "have not" to of course be the ones that it's TRULY mandatory for ya know. If all have to go equally then I might could get with it.

by nastrodamus on 07/27/2010 11:34:39 AM EST

The negative arguments do not ouway the positive.. (none / 0)

The traditional arguments against this service is that during the two years you give up earning potential that can never be recovered and so you are poorer for having done it.  Many people think that being anti-establishment is a way of life and so they reject submitting to the government authority.

Fine.  But if you want the protection of the government, the social services that come from it, the advantages of living in a modern democracy then you have the responsibility to serve your country.

That service can be military, police, community service, hospital orderly, you name it.  But a society that doesn't strive to help one another will soon become a society of greedy selfish malcontents like we have today.

Certainly being drafted to go to war to fight for a bunch of oil companies and banks seems like a poor way to serve your country.  If the military was a non-mercenary army you can bet we wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/27/2010 11:48:49 AM EST

I pretty much agree. (none / 1)
I think some sort of manditory service to better the country, or protect it is a great idea. Every American needs to to give something to the country they are a part of. No exemptions, except severe disabilty.

by ericroebuck11 on 07/27/2010 01:07:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
ok heres where I admantly disagree with you (none / 0)

Fine.  But if you want the protection of the government, the social services that come from it, the advantages of living in a modern democracy then you have the responsibility to serve your country.

 

no I pay taxes for those things. this just sounds like indentured servitude for a corrupt government and a corrupt system. this will cause a war and I will have no sympathy for any authority figure killed trying to enforce this.

this is disgusting!!!

 

that service can be military, police, community service, hospital orderly, you name it.  But a society that doesn't strive to help one another will soon become a society of greedy selfish malcontents like we have today.

 

we already have options to do those things already!! I could go join the military if I wanted to.

I could become an orderly or a cop or performe community service if I opted to do so, so this is yet another example of government over reaching and intruding into our private lives.

I will not become a slave to a government that wants to take the world over(dont believe me? check out that empire that we have been building for the last century.) I will not serve a country that cant even help its self. this country of blithering idiots needs to protect its self and not demand that I have to do it for them.

this country is way too lazy. Im not going to put my ass on the line for schmucks that sit on their asses all day watching fox and nascar and the nfl. I will not and I shall not.

I pay my taxes, I work, and I work within my community. other than that, i owe this country NOTHING! 

by moediggity on 07/27/2010 01:40:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Agree with you on this point (none / 0)

I was also thinking on this side of the coin also and I was think why does my service HAVE TO BE military? Shouldn't I (the individual) be able to make this decision on my own and not have the Gov. telling me how to do it? That's what gives me the heebee geeebees about the whole thing. Choice.... or lack of it in this case.

by nastrodamus on 07/27/2010 01:49:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
conformity thru force (none / 0)

get rid of the nay sayers by locking them up and killing them(yknow, the old "oops he had an "accident" in prison" or kill them by sending them off to die in a country that hasnt done anything to us for mom,dad,jesus christ and apple pie.

fuck that!!! 

by moediggity on 07/27/2010 04:30:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
What a hypocrit! (none / 0)

You pay taxes so the house help can take the risks and do the dirty work so you can live in your ivory palace.  What a completely selfish attitude.  You sound like the rich folk.

Citizenship is more than paying taxes.  Everybody pays taxes.  Only the poor folk need to serve their country, cause they don't pay taxes?

You're such a spoiled little liberal.  Serve your country in a food kitchen if necessary along with the rest of us poor folk.  You might learn something, feel satisfaction get in touch with your inner self.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/28/2010 12:26:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I am against military service for anyone (none / 0)

I always try to influence people to stay out of military service, regardless of their country.

For one, I absolutely refuse to ever shoot to kill, even to protect my own life, and I would only shoot then for a shoulder or something.

Two, I am against all wars of aggression, invasions of other countries, etc, for America or any other country. I prefer more peaceful methods.

Three, I do not view military service as good for the country, or serving the country. I'd like to serve the country, or the world really, but that would mean activism, being a doctor, etc, not serving the military. 

Support your country by not joining the military. 

by Maghetti21 on 07/28/2010 11:31:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So you are against police, firefighters, nurses? (none / 0)

This service is not just military.  Those who do not want to be militarized will serve in another capacity.  The country needs soldiers, but it also needs a whole lot more.

You can't say I paid my taxes so I have no obligations.  Citizenship is much more than that.  I assume you were sleeping in civics class.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/29/2010 03:22:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I can't think of something much (none / 0)
more anti democratic and authoritarian than forced service in ANYTHING. Forcing people to serve in any job for the state is the sort of thing wars should actually be fought over if they have to be. This is the sort of policy I expect from a fascist. You can take that authoritarian nonsense and shove it up your ass.

by Maghetti21 on 07/29/2010 09:01:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And you can move somewhere else... (none / 0)
where the only thing people value is money.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/30/2010 03:01:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If it was up to me money wouldn't exist. (none / 0)
I hate money, it is the least of my concern. I right now am as poor as possible. No job, in debt from college, with less than 20$ left until i finish college. I do care about civil service, just not FORCED civil service. The forced part is where you go from agreement into my perceiving fascism.

by Maghetti21 on 07/30/2010 07:01:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Then how can you say that's why I pay taxes? (none / 0)

You don't pay taxes.  What exactly are you doing to justify the "benefits" that you enjoy as a citizen of the US? There is no free lunch.

If everyone must do it, is it forced?  Everyone has to pay taxes.  Everyone has to obey the law.  Everyone has to go to school until the age of 16.  Now everyone has to serve their community for two years.  What's wrong with that?

Why are you better than your neighbor?

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/30/2010 11:04:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Umm... (none / 0)

Perhaps you should read up, you will notice I am not the guy who went on about how paying taxes is his civic duty and nothing else. I am a different person. Wrong person.

My position is that so long as you cover peoples needs, the economy is structured in a way where most jobs benefit people, the majority of people will do their part to help society WITHOUT it being forced. 

As for justifying the benefits i receive, same thing applies to me as all poor people. Were not dicks so we are going to help regardless of people returning the favor. The government covered my insurance for a long time, and is now paying for my schooling, but I will attempt to return the favor when i am on my feet, as it should be for anyone.

You wouldn't be to progressive if you want to bash on the poor, especially when they are getting schooled thanks to the social programs we support to get on my feet. 

As for my neighbor, I don't want them forced either. And I expect they will also do their part to benefit society with out your fascist ideas.

by Maghetti21 on 07/31/2010 05:05:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Call it fascist.. I call it fair. (none / 0)

Everyone is the great leveler.  If we were a socialist society everyone would do it as a matter of principle.  Since we are a capitalist society the rich pay someone to do the dirty work.  If everyone has to do it, that means the rich too.

Our wars are being fought largely by minorities because the free traders that own all the corporate stock profited by offshoring the jobs of minorities.  No, to be fair it has to be 100%, rich and poor alike.  Otherwise we are just a serving class to the rich.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/31/2010 06:39:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Around the draft (none / 0)
$50 bucks says they propose and pass this bill about 9-12 months before an invasion of Iran.

They need war bodies and this could be a way to circumvent the draft.

by Young Turk 87 on 07/27/2010 01:25:12 PM EST

Passing the bill (none / 0)
Man I hope not....that's why we need to get this out their and let the PEOPLE decide this and not the fraggin war machine

by nastrodamus on 07/27/2010 01:50:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Having Now Read the Bill (none / 1)
after following the link, I can't get behind the notion of this bill.  While the very last section of the bill makes plenty good sense to me (a section regarding the registration of females with the Board of Selective Service), the rest of this bill seems, to my estimation, to be far too vague and over-reaching.

The bill would, as it is currently worded, give far too much authority to the President with regards to forced military enlistment.  While non-military national service is covered, it is by the very nature of the terminology utilized in the bill to be viewed as the secondary option.  Most of the bill is heavily in favor of mandatory military conscription.

In the section of the bill regarding the term of service to be served, the President is offered by way of this bill's language an all-too-vague set of reasons for compelling an extension of a service member's enlistment within the armed services.  Additionally, individuals who are inducted (non-volunteer) into the armed services do not have their period of basic military training or technical school training (AIT) tabulated and counted towards their overall time served under this bill.  In other words, if an Airman is inducted, his 7 weeks of BMT do not count towards his term of service.  In the event that his or her technical school training period is among the longer-running courses of instruction (CommSec was supposed to run me a total of 24 weeks), this time also shall not be counted towards the service member's overall service time.

Which is utter and complete bullshit.  That's time that you aren't able to be a private citizen in the private sector with any family or friends you may have.  

In the section regarding high school students, there is a particularly unsettling bit of language which states that students who are not 'satisfactorily completing their courses of study' may be inducted into military service.  What precisely is to be considered 'unsatisfactory' with regards to this bill?  Listen, I struggled with calculus in my junior year, and ultimately wound up dropping the course,  Would this have been grounds, under this bill, to cease my high school education and compel me into service?  I was 18 years old in my junior year, after all, and thus within the age limitations and requirements of the bill as it is proposed.  

There are far too many non-specified instances covered in this bill as it currently stands, and as such a heavy emphasis is placed on induction into military services, I cannot find myself in support of it.  If the language within the bill is addressed and the powers/authority of the President to extend service obligations are more narrowly defined, perhaps I can consider a second look at this particular bit of legislation.  Until that happens, though, no dice.

Cheers.

by Byronofsidius on 07/27/2010 02:09:55 PM EST

Exactly (none / 0)
These are the parts of the bill that were really unsettling and the bill seemed to really give the office of the President a lot of crazy authority that I didn't like at all. I agree with all of your points you made!

by nastrodamus on 07/27/2010 03:21:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I would rather have the Patriot Act times 2 passed (none / 0)
Than a bill mandating military service. 

by Maghetti21 on 07/27/2010 05:55:58 PM EST

To serve the government (none / 0)
The only legitimate purpose of government is to serve the people. This deplorable bill turns that on it's head. It is also unconstitutional. Nothing in the Constitution gives the government the power to force people to join the military or any other service. One might point to section 8 of Article I that gives Congress the power "To raise and support Armies" but that does not say "To raise and support Armies by any means." The same section gives Congress the power "To establish Post Offices and post Roads" but no one would argue it has the power to draft you into the postal service. In addition, the thirteenth amendment provides: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude ... shall exist within the United States ..." This is clearly involuntary servitude.

by Corpusless on 07/27/2010 07:13:28 PM EST

H.R. 5741 Universal National Service Act = Mandato (none / 0)
maybe if you americans get up close and personal with your wars you would view them differently and stop all the god dam war mongering you are doing now . i love the idea of the usa but the way "you" are acting i am starting to understand the other side very well

by aristo on 07/27/2010 07:27:23 PM EST

Nope (none / 0)

Your view assumes the people actually doing the fighting have a significant voice in the decision to go to war. That's not true. The decision is made by the rulers, the rich. American soldiers, for the most part, are victims of war too. In fact, as a general rule, the majority of soldiers throughout the history of all countries have been victims of war. Since you are not American, perhaps you are not familiar with Buffy St. Marie, but my belief that rank and file soldiers are not the ones who decide to make war is why I have trouble with her song "Universal Soldier." It goes like this:

 

He's 5 foot 2 and he's 6 foot 4.
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of 31 and he's only 17.
He's been a soldier for a thousand years.

He's a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain
A Buddhist, and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill
And he knows he always will kill
You for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada.
He's fighting for France.
He's fighting for the USA.
And he's fighting for the Russians.
And he's fighting for Japan.
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for democracy.
He's fighting for the reds.
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone.
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon of the war.
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the universal soldier
And he really is to blame.
His orders comes from
far away no more.

They come from him
And you and me
And brothers can't you see
This is not the way we put an end to war.

 


by Corpusless on 07/27/2010 10:02:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Nope (none / 0)
i know the soldiers now dont have any decition in wheater to go to war or not my point was your generel public most of the time are very detached from the wars and if there own lives are at stake maybe they would actualy go and vote out the warmongers

by aristo on 07/28/2010 02:08:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
antiwar man here guy (none / 0)

by moediggity on 07/27/2010 11:52:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Fussing about nothing (none / 0)
Rangel introduces this bill nearly every year. It won't anywhere.

by Landbeyond on 07/28/2010 04:24:25 AM EST

...won't go anywhere (none / 0)

by Landbeyond on 07/28/2010 05:13:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Doubtful (none / 0)

"No, you are a paid blogger assigned to counter anyone that posts something negative about the government or Obama." by Mcamelyne II on 05/17/2011

by Robrob on 07/28/2010 04:39:54 AM EST

Look (none / 1)

I am just a hair under 42 years old.

I have a wife, a couple of young children, a new house to pay for and a job that keeps me very busy.

If the Government wats to ask for more of my time then they should have given me a "heads up" ten years a go. 

by z1p101 on 07/30/2010 08:55:02 PM EST

Perspective (none / 0)

I think it would do a lot of good.

Regarding military service, I think more people need to take a closer look at what goes on overseas in order to better appreciate the realities of warfare. Too many citizens who have not served are sending our young into battle with no regard for their lives.

It isn't like we're getting a realistic depiction in the media. America went into a frenzy when the media released a photograph of military caskets heading home from the middle east. Imagine how people would view the wars if CNN aired footage of our soldiers dying on the battlefield. That's something you don't see but you should. Otherwise there remains a disconnect between pulling a lever on the ballot box and those who die as a result.

In a similar regard, serving your community should make one more likely to get involved politically. People don't vote because they don't know what they would be voting for. Educate the public by giving them first-hand experience. Maybe then people like Hugh won't take the service of government employees so lightly.

"Terrorism is the war for the poor and powerless. War is the terrorism for the rich and powerful."

by JamesStevensDigArt on 07/30/2010 09:00:20 PM EST

The problem or concern is (none / 0)
The people that actually make war which is obviously not poor/middle class people already are at war on so many levels. I think the issue is would the people who make war i.e. the bankers who fund the war, the war machines who have the defense contracts and such i.e. the rich people will they be made to go and fight? IF not then the people who you are trying to teach the lesson to are not learning and sending us off to fight. We don't need the lesson THEY DO. I just think the middle class and poor will get hosed.

by nastrodamus on 07/31/2010 10:14:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
H.R. 5741 Universal National Service Act = Mandatory Military Service?? | 39 comments (39 topical, 0 hidden)
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