07/30/2010 10:16:57 AM EST

Shop around for schools

posted by Puffin

Why don't you pay for education this way ?

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I don't know if has been tried in the US or not but here is one way of making sure all kids get a somewhat equal education.

Each kid who goes to elementary- or high-school gets a check each year, same amount. The kid and his parents can then decide what school they want to go to and thus what school they will give their check to.

The schools compete with each other to be as appealing as possible and getting as many checks/students as possible. Good schools will  prosper and bad school will shut down.

All kids would get to go to whatever school they want to, the best schools that fill up fast would then use grades to determine who gets admitted, not geographical proximity. It wouldn't matter what part of town you live in, what the property tax was like in your area. If you are willing to take the buss to the other end of town, and your grades are good enough, you could go to a "rich" school even if you live in a poor neighborhood. 

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Shop around for schools | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)
Welcome to Conservative America! (none / 0)
What you are describing is the plan Republicans want - the voucher system.

And it SUCKS!

I'm glad you're thinking about it; don't get me wrong. But what you describe is a sure road to rich people being educated well and poor people being left by the wayside. Having a check to spend at a school across town doesn't help if you can't afford the bus fare there and back.

One of America's brightest lights is Public Education - when it's done right. Our problems arise when Conservatives AND Liberals come in and try to determine a social agenda for schools instead of a curriculum. And, we need to consolidate school districts.

Keep thinking, and don't forget to think about the stuff on the edges. The devil is in the details

by MedfordTim on 07/30/2010 11:15:15 AM EST

The voucher system, (none / 0)

didn't know the name for it, thanks.

Anyway, the voucher system is what is used in a few  European countries at the moment. Sweden has been using it for close to 15 years now.

I'm surprised that the republicans want a system used (and liked my most people) in "socialist" Sweden...I wonder if they know that hehe. Not that they it makes a difference or that they should care.

I guess it's impossible to compare two countries that are so different, not only just when it comes to size. What little conclusion you can draw from just 15 years, it seems to be working ok here though.

 

 

 

 

by Puffin on 07/30/2010 11:34:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Perspective (none / 0)
Sweden has many programs which work well for them but are lost in translation to an American system.

Keep in mind that the U.S. is more akin to an E.U. setup rather than an individual country because of our 50 states having their own rules - Sweden only has Sweden to consider, which makes country-wide decisions a little easier. Try to imagine the confusion and infighting which would occur if the E.U. took over the reins of education for all participating countries - think France and Germany would be on the same page? Would Turkish kids get the same care and attention as those in The Netherlands?

That's one of our speed bumps. We don't have a comprehensive, holistic approach - it's all band-aids and scrambling.

And, with a voucher system, the number of religion based schools would skyrocket, and that is VERY anti-American. Or, it SHOULD be...

by MedfordTim on 07/30/2010 12:13:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Alternate perspective (none / 0)
And, with a voucher system, the number of religion based schools would skyrocket, and that is VERY anti-American.

How anti-American is using the GI Bill voucher system to attend the University of Notre Dame?


If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's "free."

by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsTwba on 07/31/2010 11:23:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh, bullshit, Twba! (none / 0)
What's with the false equivalency shit? Keep the discussion to K-12 and kids, okay? You wanna get off on sidetracks about Adult Education, start a different thread.

by MedfordTim on 07/31/2010 06:15:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Scandinavian surprise (none / 0)
I'm surprised that the republicans want a system used (and liked my most people) in "socialist" Sweden...I wonder if they know that hehe.

I wonder if American progressives realize that Sweden is not nearly as socialist as they assume.

In Sweden, the average cost of a municipal education follows the choices of parents. Even if they send their kid to a private school, that budget - about £6,500 - follows. To get the money, private schools are not allowed to charge top-up fees, and there is no academic selection. But it's easy to get a licence to enter this system, and 1,100 new schools have sprung up because of it. Most, about 800 of them (Gove please note), are profit-making. Many are small schools but in big chains (some with turnovers of £100m and more), which actually have a successful model for organising and running schools, and take that successful brand to one school after another.

Nor surprisingly, this supply-side revolution, a deregulation of the school sector, has brought plenty of new investment. In the UK it might cost £25m to set up a new school. In Sweden, it costs the state nothing, because parents, teachers, companies and others raise the money they need - and usually work out ways to do things far cheaper than the state can. And it works. the new schools have 20% better educational outcomes.

There seem to be four lessons from all of this. (1) Make it easy for new people to come in and provide education. Standards, yes, but allow people to start small, maybe renting empty office or warehouse space, rather than insisting that everything has to be built and run as the state builds and runs it. (2) Allow profit making, because that is what drives the investment and the risk-taking. (3) Don't keep subsidizing failure, but reward success. (4) Let people spread their success. That is what makes the Swedish system work: it's about knowing how to deliver education effectively, and taking that expertise far and wide.


If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's "free."

by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsTwba on 07/31/2010 11:14:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Mislead, much? (none / 0)
It's socialist enough for me! They pay for college! Through taxes! No onerous "student loans" to hold you back when you enter the job market - imagine that!

For the fact deprived, Sweden is slightly larger than California and has an under 18 population of around 2 million. 10-15% of those (I'm being very generous going to 15%) are in these private schools (Another example of consolidated buying power and centralized decision making - imagine that, too!). So, around 250,000 max students in these schools.

In contrast, the Los Angeles school system, by itself, has 618,000 enrollees in K-12. Which doesn't include charter or private schools.

And now that Sweden has banned home schooling and curtailing the amount of variation for-profit and religious schools from the official government standard, the abuses might be curtailed.

So, even though there are for-profit schools for the religious and ethnically bigoted to send their kids to, they still have to learn what the other kids do in terms of science, history, and all that good stuff.

When are you going to learn that a balance is what's needed, not a pendulum swing in either direction? Public Education is a good thing. We should be doing everything we can to shore it up, not undermine it. Expand it, not make it whither away and disappear...how the hell does that benefit the country? What will the excuse be when our illiteracy levels are back those of the 1800's?

(A Stack Of The Deck note: It's easy to get "20% better educational outcomes" when you can pick and choose which students you'll accept. That's a bogus marketing claim no matter who is making it.)

by MedfordTim on 07/31/2010 07:13:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Welcome to reality (none / 0)
But what you describe is a sure road to rich people being educated well and poor people being left by the wayside.

As opposed to what we have now?

Having a check to spend at a school across town doesn't help if you can't afford the bus fare there and back.

Competition benefits all, Tim. You don't need bus fare to benefit from the Walmart on the other side of town. Safeway by your house will lower prices and improve quality to keep its customers who can drive to its competitor. A free market in education works the same way.

And, we need to consolidate school districts.

Because nothing achieves major improvements better than a larger bureaucracy and more central planning?


If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's "free."

by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsTwba on 07/31/2010 11:21:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Contradictory, much? (none / 0)
So, you don't mind that Wal-mart has centrilized buying power or Safeway can have one or two district offices in a state instead of one for every city they are in, but you won't afford the citizens the same opportunity when it comes to education?

I know Libertarians are dead set against planning for the future on anything past their own front door, but the rest of us feel a bit of responsibility for the society we live in. Hell, I'm a diagnosed "anti-social personality," and **I** have more compassion in my litle toe than the average, run of the mill Conservative.
Competition doesn't benefit anyone but the profiteers when the competitors rig the game in their favor. There are still some of us who are willing to fight the good fight against the greedy and self-interested.

Yeah, yeah, and if the Safeway's prices are too high, I can always move closer to Walmart, right? And if my boss is paying me shit wages, I should just get a better job, right? Gawd, everything is so easy in Right-Wing world...


by MedfordTim on 07/31/2010 06:31:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Contradict head (none / 0)
So, you don't mind that Wal-mart has centrilized buying power or Safeway can have one or two district offices in a state instead of one for every city they are in, but you won't afford the citizens the same opportunity when it comes to education?

So you don't mind that competitive pressure drives Walmart and Safeway to continually strive to deliver better products and services at lower prices but you won't afford the citizens the same opportunity when it comes to education?


If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's "free."

by TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsTwba on 08/05/2010 02:11:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Stupid argument (none / 0)
Glad to see you're on board to make the public education system better.

Now, get your priorities straight and stop worrying about where kids who need extra protection 24 hours a day go to school.

Figure out ways to improve the system, not destroy it. That's the way the Founding Fathers wanted it, after all! As a Conservative, you must bow to the alter of the Founding Fathers, right? Original intent, and all that? "Promote the general welfare?"

by MedfordTim on 07/31/2010 07:24:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Voucher vs. Check (none / 0)
In the voucher system, the money goes to a PRIVATE for profit school, which means that the wealthier can supplement the voucher, send their kids to costlier school, and further widen the gap between rich and poor in our country .  It's a financially gated school community for the rich.  Better yet, skip the check part - just make all PUBLIC schools open enrollment.  In this day and age of personal transportation and two-worker families, geographical proximity should not be a limiting factor in school choice.  This would do more to even out the opportunity/achievement gap in our public schools.

by nuevomexicano on 07/30/2010 12:41:27 PM EST

serious reservations (none / 0)
Wouldn't the schools end up competing on irrelevant criteria? Instead of good books and teachers, wouldn't they spend their money on sports, making the school look nice, recreational facilities and other crap like that to try to attract students?

by jhufford on 07/30/2010 01:22:57 PM EST

It's the teachers unions... (none / 0)

I'm not for or against, but the prevailing view is that the teachers' unions are against school vouchers.  It would mean a loss of jobs to private for profit schools.  And yes, the Republicans are being insidious, because they want money to go to parochial schools and for profit schools.

The teachers' unions typically support Democrats, so anything that hurts a key ally is always good for Republicans.

Money isn't the problem.  In fact, money might be the problem in a different way.  There are 10s of countries that have better schools and cost 1/10th of American schools.  The Federal govt has been throwing money at education without achieving better results.

It's the home life and the social environment.  If kids spend their free time playing video games, watching TV, playing sports, hanging out at the wall, is it any wonder they are doing poorly.

A good education starts at home with a stable home environment and parents that care about their children's performance.  If a parent is too busy working to check on their kids, the kids on average are not going to do as well.  That's common sense.  If the parent doesn't see the benefit of school, why would the child?

My students study 3-4 hours a day at home and attend 3 after school training classes each week in math, English and literature.  That is the norm for them.  They hate it, but they get good grades.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 07/30/2010 09:26:19 PM EST

High-school (none / 0)

"A good education starts at home with a stable home environment and parents that care about their children's performance.  If a parent is too busy working to check on their kids, the kids on average are not going to do as well.  That's common sense.  If the parent doesn't see the benefit of school, why would the child?"

 This is so true...

 

 

In the Netherlands we don’t only want our high-school children to know the things they need to learn, but also teach the way they learn the subject.

I am an intern at a high-school and I use different types of teaching techniques and different types of applications (smart board/internet), so we can teach them how to use different sources and how they can interpret them.

They need to judge the sources that they use and learn different study techniques, because not every student learns in the same way.

by Robby Holland on 07/31/2010 05:12:13 PM EST

Shop around for schools | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)
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