The N Word

A conversation in the TYT chat prompted me to post this, which I originally posted as a Facebook Note.

I'm a fan of the Indiana University page, and they posted that they would be attending the Indiana Black Expo and asked if any of their followers would also be attending the event. I first decided that I was probably unlikely to attend, given that it is in Indianapolis, but after reading the posts in the thread I decided it's too important not to go. 

The thread got real racial real fast. The first reply to the thread, "Is IU going to attend the White Expo?" It progressed into people questioning why there are so many exclusive events or organization, etc. that are exclusive to the black community. Well, I know this to be false, so I initially just posted to show that the Indiana Black Expo is not exclusive to one race. In fact, in the about section of their website they have this:

"OUR DIVERSITY PROMISE - Indiana Black Expo, Inc. celebrates cultural diversity and inclusiveness across all races, ethnicities, nationalities, generations, socioeconomic levels and religious affiliations. We continue to strive for excellence by providing unique events and programs which reflect the changing landscape of Indiana and the world. Our commitment to excellence through personal enhancement and community development exemplify our dedication to improving the quality of life for all."

They even have a photo of Mitch Daniels on their website banner. It is hardly an event exclusive to blacks. It's only an event that wishes to advance the black community in education, business, the arts, sports, or any other area of society which the black community has historically been excluded from.

But it continued to evolve into a more racial (eventually, overtly racist) argument. There was of course the argument against scholarships for minorities. This seems to be a stock, ready-to-order argument in all conversations about race relations in this country. This argument prompted my second post:

"And to address your scholarship argument: it is decidedly false. As a young, heterosexual, white male (see... I don't meet any "minority requirements" either), I have received $2,500 in the form of three scholarships in four years from Indiana University. It's difficult, it's frustrating, but that is what the process is like for everyone.

Scholarships are merit-based, and they go to whomever the University deems the most worthy. I'm sorry you did not get as many (or any?) scholarships while you were in college, but I really don't think blaming programs like Affirmative Action which aim to get more minorities into college, being that they are historically underrepresented in higher education, for any of your shortcomings is very productive.

Also, even though minority scholarships "give preference" to whichever minority they are targeting (women, blacks, Hispanics, etc.), anybody can apply, and everyone will be considered. Not to mention, there are websites devoted to non-traditional scholarships (like being unusually tall or having a D-average) open to all people interested, and able to show merit (fastweb.com)."


But the argument continued to progress (or regress) into a more horribly eye-opening revelation that racism is still not dead. It eventually led to the typical racist reaction to a minority community celebrating its heritage and advancements in American society; the dreaded "reverse racism." The argument turned to the "us vs. them" argument of "Why do they get to have so many things that exclude whites, and whites can't have anything of the sort without sounding racist?" Surprisingly, nobody mentioned Black History Month, but they did bring into the argument the television network BET and the notion of "black culture." I felt I needed to address the difficult task of defining "black culture." It's definitely not something that is really definable, but a topic that should be addressed, nonetheless. My third post:

"BET really doesn't represent black culture. It represents a segment of black culture, sure, but it represents a segment of American culture as a whole. Generally, the network BET is targeting a demographic of young people who enjoy rap, hip-hop, and (modern) R&B music. If the channel was exclusively African American, then it probably would not have artists like Eminem on. Eminem is a rapper, BET plays rap music videos, so he is featured on BET.

I couldn't tell you what black culture is, because I don't know. As far as I can tell, it's just American culture. But it is a lot easier to tell you what additions African Americans have made to American culture. Of course, as mentioned, one is music. Jazz, Rock 'n Roll, the Blues, R&B, Soul, Funk, Rap, and Hip-Hop are additions by the African American community to American culture. And what's more American than Jazz and Rock 'n Roll? But that's something that's not celebrated much, is it? And it's not something that's really even acknowledged much. But, shouldn't it be? It would be no different than acknowledging and celebrating the things other ethnic groups have brought into our culture. Like the food of Italian Americans, for example. Everyone loves spaghetti, and where does that dish come from? Italy. Specifically from the Italian immigrants who came to this country around the turn of the century. So, if we can acknowledge and celebrate the additions to our culture by Italian Americans, why not African Americans, whose additions to our culture have largely been ignored for so long?"


The argument did not end there, however, and it culminated in the "Why can they use the N-word, but we can't" argument. Well, this last subject has always been an opinion I've kept to myself, since the use of the N-word, by anyone, is still highly controversial. But this presented me with the opportunity to express my opinion. My fourth, and final, post:

"My opinion of the "N-word": The outrage some white people have over the use of the word by the black community is grounded in racism. The outrage isn't over the use of the word, but rather that the use of the word is no longer acceptable for a white person to use. 

How has this word been used historically by racist white people? It's been used to communicate in just two syllables the control the white race has over the black race. It conveys a sense of superiority over whomever the word is used against. It is the ugliest word ever used in the English language.

And how is the word used in the black community today (at least among those who use it)? As a term of endearment. The word was consciously "taken back" back during the Civil Rights Era (I think this movement was spearheaded by the Black Panthers, but I'm not sure). The purpose of this movement was to remove the racist connotation from the word as it is used against the black community. The goal of the movement was to put the power of the word into the hands of the black community. This was a rousing success. No longer is it socially acceptable for a white person to use this word, but it is socially acceptable for a black person to use this word. 60 years ago, the tables were turned.

However, the use of the word, and it's variants (the different spellings) is still highly controversial in the black community. This, too, I believe is a generational thing, with younger people using the word without reservation, and older people, even people who may have used the word affectionately in their youth, abhor the word. But the outrage from the white community at the use of the word isn't typically because it's an ugly word and shouldn't be used by anyone, it's "Why can THEY use it and WE can't?" It's an "us vs. them" mentality (and it's the argument that was used in this thread, unfortunately). It's just racism.

I think it's also important to note that the use of the word as a term of endearment has begun to cross race and ethnicity, and is used by all young people. Whether or not this is a good thing is debatable. On one hand, it could eventually lead to this generation having an easier time using the word with it's original racist connotation, on the other hand, it could eventually lead to the word losing that racist connotation altogether. I personally think the latter is a little too optimistic, and the the former is more likely to happen. So it's probably a subject that parents and teachers should begin to address to warn kids against using the word, because of its history.

That's my personal opinion on the word."
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Poll

After reading this post, have you reconsidered your stance on the "N Word"?
Yes, I previously thought the use of the word by blacks while they would get furious at whites for using it was racist itself. 0%
No, I still think blacks using it and not allowing whites to use it is racist. 0%
No, I would need more convincing than one random blogger's opinion. 0%
No, I held this same view, or a similar view, already. 100%

Votes: 7
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about white people who say "why can they say it, but I can't?"  There's proof of that right here in our very forum.  Our resident admitted racist goes on tirades about this subject on occasion.

(And we had a similar discussion about offensive language in another recent thread.)

Interesting post.

by Spencer on 08/12/2010 08:44:58 PM EST

I lost (as in couldn't find) that discussion and didn't know you replied. I think this is a good place to reply to something you said to me.

" a history of hatred.  The hatred being the key part there.  The word isn't magical.  It doesn't make people hate.

The hatred behind the word is the part that should be offensive to you.  Being offended by the word itself gives it entirely too much power.

"if the grand wizard would call people they hate that, I don't think it should be said by anyone who doesn't hate those people whether funny or not."

My vocabulary isn't defined by what words some shit-kicking racist decides to use.  I used the word to make an ironic quip.  No grand wizard is going to stop me from being a snarky asshole."

 its not that easy to just use the word knowing yourself that you don't mean it in a hateful way. no one else will know and you will appear bigoted because most often it is used by people of our race to portray hate. I was also on the other side of the word recently and still argued with the person that it was wrong. he was a close black friend who argued that its okay for me to be considered one. I told him no one should want to be considered one. even without its history, its a more derogatory form of calling someone an idiot.

I don't think everyone who uses the word is a racist, but I do think it shows a lack of consideration and an ignorance to use it just to use it. the hardest thing to defend is using the word around a black person even referring to it in a friendly to your friend, whether he is black, white, or sasquatch, because the word doesn't change, just the reason behind its use. last I checked, we can't read minds, so when someone uses that word who isn't black the immediate thought is "racist." I think more broadly and think when ANYONE uses it, my thought is "ignorant."


 

" And while I'm not much of a writer, and I'm certainly not very smart, for some reason people like to read what I write."- Hugh Everett

by Mutt1126 on 08/12/2010 10:42:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Believe it or not, I'm with you almost 100%.

When I say that the word isn't the hateful thing, that doesn't mean I'm walking around like Dr. Laura saying "niggerniggernigger&qu ot; all the time in front of crowds of strangers.  But if I'm in a conversation with someone that I know well (white, black, or whatever) and a subject related to "the n word" comes up, I'd much rather say the word itself, and not it's toothless twin, "the n word."  I say it every time I do my Rush Limbaugh impression, for example, to make a satirical point.  When I say it in that instance, I'm making fun of Rush and the people who think like him, and not black people, obviously.  That's why I say that the word itself isn't hateful.  If you're not black, you can use it for reporting ("Can you believe that guy just called me a nigger?" etc.) or for satire (my comment in the other thread, Rush impression, etc.), but if you're using the word for it's intended purpose, you're a racist.

It just annoys the shit out of me when people neuter words to make themselves feel better.  When people say "the n word," they're still saying nigger, they're just not saying it saying it.  They weaken the word, and proceed to weaken whatever else their point was in the process.  For instance, if a Klansmen said to you "You're an n-word lover," you'd just laugh, but if they said "You're a nigger lover," you'd punch them in the face.  And it works both ways, too.  My Rush impression lacks a lot of punch if I only say "the n word" during it, for example.

My broader point (because I'm sick of arguing FOR the use of nigger specifically): Euphemistic language sure does suck.  The closer the words are to the reality, the better.

by Spencer on 08/13/2010 03:15:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I avoid throwing it out there often, but I have been dating a black girl for 3 years and we plan to marry so this has come up well... more than once lol. I've been in situations where friends of friends think that because shes there and they know shes with me, they can say it. this is where the dr. laura thing bothers me, because what that lady's husband should do is stand up for her. after I pull her back, calm her down, and assure her I will take care of it, I take them to the side and assure them that its not cool, its less cool because shes there, & they're only using it to be edgey. most understand, but lets face it, thats the only reason they say it. its ridiculous. almost as much so as dr. laura.

your view of it is that you make sure its okay with the people your around. that I understand, but my girlfriend is more along the belief of not even black people should say it. our familys have been connected most of our lives so we were raised that way. the one thing I will continue to disagree with you is in snarky "edgey" humor. I didn't know you were doing a limbaugh impression (by the way, look up the most recent video from brush limbaux. you'll love it), therefore was slightly offended. I'm in the group that comedy that deserves explanation isn't funny.

" And while I'm not much of a writer, and I'm certainly not very smart, for some reason people like to read what I write."- Hugh Everett

by Mutt1126 on 08/13/2010 07:39:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if I am talking about a politician/public figure/guy down the street who's a total racist, and I'm making fun of him or paraphrasing him to illustrate how he's a racist, and I use the N-word in my characterization of what I think is going through his mind to illustrate just how racist I think he is, does that make me racist?

I mean, obviously it doesn't, a better way to phrase the question is is that acceptable?

by Capitalocracy on 08/12/2010 10:16:53 PM EST

if I am talking about a politician/public figure/guy down the street who's a total racist, and I'm making fun of him or paraphrasing him to illustrate how he's a racist, and I use the N-word in my characterization of what I think is going through his mind to illustrate just how racist I think he is, does that make me racist?

I mean, obviously it doesn't, a better way to phrase the question is is that acceptable?

by Capitalocracy on 08/12/2010 10:19:25 PM EST

weird stuff happenin', sorry about that folks

by Capitalocracy on 08/12/2010 10:20:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
context is important. just look at fox news.

" And while I'm not much of a writer, and I'm certainly not very smart, for some reason people like to read what I write."- Hugh Everett

by Mutt1126 on 08/12/2010 10:50:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
just look at fox news.

Do I have to? :(

by RedPossum on 08/12/2010 11:09:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
then you're screwed, you're getting calls from the White House telling you to resign before the Glenn Beck Show starts.

by Capitalocracy on 08/12/2010 11:27:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
now that look back, might have worked better said than typed, but yeah, I was being facetious.

" And while I'm not much of a writer, and I'm certainly not very smart, for some reason people like to read what I write."- Hugh Everett

by Mutt1126 on 08/12/2010 11:45:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And since the discussion here is very intelligent I will give my two cents.

I totally get the "term of endearment" thing.. whoever said that is "spot on" because I have watched it being used as such many times.

I get the "taking it back thing" but I also get that there are many African Americans who despise that word. Therefore, I tend to follow the Platinum rule which is one step beyond the Golden rule in that you don't treat others how you want to be treated, you treat others how THEY want to be treated. In order to do that you have to ask them.   So, if a black person doesn't like the n-word even as a term of endearment, then whether you're black or white you need to respect their thoughts on the matter.

All that is a non-issue for me because that word does not come out of my mouth. It feels wrong. I am white. I refuse to use that word.  I hate to admit it but my great grandparents used that word and it wasn't used in a nice way. Therefore, given the recent ugly history of the word, I feel it's way too soon for white people to use it.

My two  cents. Nice post.

by ilovecenk99 on 08/13/2010 02:07:26 AM EST

When are ppl going to get this right?

WHAT is Racism?
Seriously, can u answer it?

The idea that one race is superior to another ?
Are we not all proud of our culture?
Are we not divided by our cultures?
Is it not true that one culture HAS to be "better" then another if u are talking about individual, measurable values?

See how I shifted from race to culture?

Because in fact there is no such thing as race, not biologically.
There are greater genetic differences between individuals of the same "race" then there is between different "races".
Actually the only genetic marker u could possibly discern in the human population is the difference between the tall west africans, and the shorter east africans.
We are ALL either one or the other.
Dont get me wrong, there are clear physical differences between say and Asian person and a Black person, but these are TRAITS not genetic differences.
Traits that activate if enough generations are subjected to the right conditions.

But its really about cultures, obviously.
My point is that there are no racist issues in america.
There are CLASS issues, and these classes create different cultures, that sometimes clash.
Anyone perpeptuating the IDEA that there is a race problem, as in Black ppl do this, or white ppl do that, are, perhaps unwittingly, maintaining a structure of cultural and class oppression.

Again, THIS IS NOT RACIAL, its a matter of a SUPREMACY strategy.
And this strategy only goes one way, from certain white ppl, its sad, but thats history.

That doesnt mean some black, or hispanic or Asians display similar xenophobic tendencies, thats just how ignorant ppl are, but they dont have a political, class dividing, supremacists strategy that has for hundreds of years perpetuated a divide in our society that has been part of keeping the rich in power.

Which is what its REALLY all about.

-Exo 

by Exodus111 on 08/13/2010 02:27:45 AM EST

You had me until you said there are no racist issues in America.

 It's true that "race" doesn't really exist. "Race" really is just another word for "species" and when it is used to refer to another "race within a race" it is referring to a "subspecies." There are no subspecies in the human race. For this to occur there has to be a large discrepancy  ;in DNA, around 30%. The largest discrepancy in DNA in the human race is between indigenous Africans and Aborigines (in Australia) at only 3%. This is only because of a geological separation that had the two groups evolve at slightly different paces after original migration to the Australian continent from the African continent.

In fact, when the scientists behind the Human Genome Project tried to use their data to discern race, they were unable to do so. Their data confirmed that, when viewing the DNA of a white male and a black male of similar height and build next to each other, people are essentially identical& nbsp;twins. There is no way to tell what the race of an individual is by viewing their DNA. 

 That's irrelevan t, though. That's just some science for you. What's really important is the issue of racism.

 Racism is the implied or stated superiority of one group of people over another. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with skin color. Discrimination based on skin color is just one form of racism is.

Racism is really an umbrella term that encompasses, among skin color, culture, nationality, ethnicity, religion, creed, class, and perhaps even gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity. It's an evolving hate. Every ten years or so, there becomes a new "It" group for the majority to pick on.

In our nations history: from Africans; to Irish immigrants; to freed slaves; to Chinese immigrants; to African Americans; to Jewish immigrants (especially Russian, for fear of communism); to the Irish again; to Jewish immigrants again (this time just simply out of fear of Judaism);to the Japanese (immigrants, naturalized citizens, and natural born Americans of Japanese decent); to young, independent women; to Communists (or those feared to be communist--usually Civil Rights leaders); back to African Americans (really, always African Americans, but sometimes there's a more vogue "It" group); to Mexican immigrants; to homosexuals; to Mexican immigrants again; to homosexuals again; to Muslims and/or Arabs (especially immigrants); to homosexuals again; and finally, to Mexican immigrants again.

 I tried to go in order to the best of my knowledge. Obviously the last 20 years or so are more accurate since I can personally remember them, and the last three are all currently the vogue "Its," so I would assume throughout history there's often been more than one "It" at the time.

 In all these instances, you see that the majority has held the view that they are superior to whichever minority they have chosen as their inferior at that particular time. You're right in that regard. It's always about superiority. You're wrong in the regard that this isn't all racism. The discrimination is all the same. You may call it "sexism," or "homophobia," or "Islamophobia," or whatever arbitrary name assigned to this specific type of hate. But these are all just forms of racism redefined. But it's all racism. It's all hate. It's all the imposed superiority of one group, the majority (real or perceived), over another group, a minority. 

by dustinjt on 08/13/2010 01:44:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
hatred or bitter feeling of unfairness toward one or more race of human beings usually based in economic situations or stereotypes of the people in question.

IE. all black people voted for obama because he is black.
all white people are racist.
all asians are bad drivers.

" And while I'm not much of a writer, and I'm certainly not very smart, for some reason people like to read what I write."- Hugh Everett

by Mutt1126 on 08/13/2010 07:47:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
you mean NATIONALIZATION??? lol

ok, now I’ll take this seriously as Obama should have done with the economic crisis with the proper use of that N word.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 08:30:25 PM EST

Affirmative action I have mixed feelings over. To me, it’s a weak capitalist thing to do instead of doing what should be done, which is have economic equally by sharing the wealth of all classes with everyone to make everyone have the same opportunity. Since such a thing is too extreme, we do AA instead, which does work, but not as well. Then again, the soviets used a form of AA for women to get them to be educated, and have the same opportunity as men.

IDK I’m on the fence about AA, I’m not really for it, but I’m not against it either. It works yes, but I think there are better, and yes more radical, solutions to the problem it sloves.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 08:39:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
the right wingers have done there best, and for the most part been successful, at rewriting or minimizing the history of civil rights in this country, so its not well know but I swear is the truth...

did you know that MLK was a democratic socialist?

hence why that purposed monument for him in Washington DC has be condemned by some as making him look too socialist.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 08:44:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
as long as they are open to everyone, then it's ok, but...

I don't like programs (schools, or anything related to education, bands and such) that are all one race, whites, blacks, asians, etc. and I think all attempt should be made to intergate them all unless it's made impossible because one or other raaces of people for w/e reason don't get involded in that.

generally, I favor the intergation of everything, and the segragation of nothing.

and as long as there is no double standard, that everyone is allowed in, and there is no resistions based on race, sex, and oritation (aka if your gay, bi, trans, etc.), then its all good.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 08:53:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
the mayor of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, said that NO should be rebuild as a chocolate city (aka blacks only), and he was heavy criticized for it, and imho should have resigned for that.

my point being is that discrimination in this country is no tolerated, no matter who does it.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 08:56:44 PM EST

I think the use of the N word, in any from or any other word that is used that has the same effect (like bogs, cracker, ringos (been called that before), etc), is stupid, considering it's history.

I see anyone who uses it as a silly stupid bigot.

All it does is promate hate and controvesity, so it is useless, and should not be said or used, its conter productive.

by KangaKucha on 08/13/2010 09:06:19 PM EST

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