Is It Just Because I'm an Evil Atheist? (Koran-burning)

So I should begin by stating that I could probably be most fairly characterized as a "militant atheist".  I think religion is the single most destructive idea in human history and I loathe them all nearly equally, from Christianity and Islam, all the way down to Buddhism and the the new age stuff that is so hip today.  I'm against all of it, 100%.  So now that I've likely offended 95% of you (maybe 85% on TYT)...

With that said, I strangely find myself on the side of the Koran-burning church here.  I'm not on their side in that I agree with what they are doing.  I don't agree with it really, and wouldn't do it.  Not for any respect of Islam or any religion, but because, ultimately, I think burning ANY book in this type of ritual is a pretty pointless exercise, on top of being extremely impolite, to put it mildly.

But yet, to me, I see this as a sort of free speech issue where, if the roles were reversed, liberals and conservatives would probably flip sides like they seem to on so many issues to me as someone who can often be found on either side of the ideological spectrum. (Yes, I know many many people on the right have come out against this, but let's be honest, the left is driving it as an issue.)

No one has a right for their religion to be respected by others.  They have the right for their freedom to practice their religion to be respected, but that isn't the same thing.  To me, if someone wants to burn, piss on, or pulverize a symbol that others revere, that is their right, and if those who revere that symbol are so irrational that the burners or pissers, or even the entire country they live in, have to fear violent reprisal, well, that's a problem with the violent reprisers, not the burners.

To me, the idea that religious people get so bent out of shape that they want to do violence over some perceived act of disrespect to their beliefs that has no actual tangible impact on their life, that is a much much bigger problem than the problem of a bunch of morons lacking both a sense of basic decorum and an understanding of geopolitics and wanting to burn the Koran.

I think if we were truly being consistent in support of free speech, we would be defending the offensive speech of the Koran burners, as much as we might disagree with their motives or objectives, and defending the idea that it is never appropriate for someone to respond to speech with violence, and that those who threaten violence in response to speech are the problem, not the speakers.

We've given Muslims around the world plenty of reasons to want to dislike America, and for some few amongst them to want to do America harm.  But I actually think it is demagoguery to suggest that some loons burning the Koran presents such an enormous danger to American security.  The danger to American security was created when we started overthrowing democratically elected governments in the Middle East in the 50s and attempting to impose our will on the region to control the flow of oil.  The danger to American security was created through 60+ years of backing the Israeli government UNCONDITIONALLY no matter what they do.  The danger to American security was created through illegal invasions in contravention of International concensus.  The danger to American security was created through hundreds of thousands of civilians being killed by American bombs.  

I think it is a pretty insulting view of the Muslim world to think that there are people who wouldn't have been ready to do violence after all that, who will suddenly be pushed over the edge by what a few dozen powerless people in a nation of 300 million do for kicks on a Saturday afternoon.  Really? We have to control every idea that a tiny radical gathering of a few dozen people chooses to express for the sake of world security? That's ludicrous. 

I think it is a pretty insulting view of the Muslim world to suggest that Muslims are going to want to kill Americans for THIS more than for all the aforementioned harm we've done to the Islamic world.

This whole controversy just seems like a big gigantic diversion to me, being covered ad nauseum by the media and hyped up by people on the left side of the ideological spectrum (where I usually am), seizing an opportunity to make a parable about the dangers of anti-Islamic sentiment, almost, it seems, hoping that there will be a violent response to make the parable more powerful. 

There are real dangers to the rising anti-Islamic sentiment in America.  But to me, this Koran-burning is one of the least worrisome examples of it.  If it was flag-burning, if it was bra burning, probably even if it was Bible burning, we on the left would be talking about the importance of free speech first and foremost, not how offensive speech should be suppressed because someone might get offended and do violence.

Principles only matter when you stand by them even when inconvenient or perhaps even dangerous.  I don't think there is any point to the folks burning the Koran.  Yes, it's probably counterproductive to our geopolitical discourse.  But it is the right that we as Americans have fought to preserve.  And if there are people out there who are going to try to do violence because that right is expressed, the American thing is to protect and defend the freedom of speech, not try to pressure the speakers into silence. 

Today, we pressure people to not burn the Koran because it will offend people and violence reprisals may result.  Tomorrow, we may feel a desire to pressure people to prevent them from expressing speech that SHOULD be expressed and NEEDS to be expressed for fear of violent reprisals.

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that I somehow get a bad feeling when I'm told about burning books?

Seems to me as another example of standing on the shoulders of giants.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/08/2010 05:08:48 PM EST

To my knowledge, nobody is saying that burning the Koran should be illegal.  People are just saying it's probably not the best idea, especially given our foreign policy in recent years.

On your other point, the reason liberals would argue for burning the flag is because conservatives have tried to pass laws making it illegal in the past.  That's when it becomes a free speech issue.

by Spencer on 09/08/2010 05:10:12 PM EST

...but I think the movement to pass laws against speech begins with the idea that "People shouldn't say..."  And we're hearing a lot of that on this issue.  To me, the question of what people should or shouldn't do, what is good or bad judgment, doesn't belong in political discourse.  So while no laws are being passed here, I think when powerful political figures start speaking out about an issue in the way they are doing, it is in a gray area between the law and the truly private. 

To me, there is a subtle and vitally important difference between: "I disagree with these folks burning the Koran and here is where I think they are wrong" as opposed to saying "They SHOULDN'T burn the Koran".  I think the former statement leads to a valuable discourse.  The latter one leads to, "How can we stop them from burning the Koran?"  Then next, it's how can we stop whoever from expressing whatever idea that most of the rest of us think is a bad one.

Don't get me wrong, we can all be nearly universally agreed that the Koran-burning is a bad idea.  The issue I see is that I think the TONE of the way that bad idea is being attacked is moving in the "we must make them not do it somehow" direction instead of the more productive "here is why they are wrong and how we are going to counter their bad idea" direction.  I think we have this instinct in America that has done us a disservice in every instance, that when someone is saying something we don't like, our response is "SHHH!!!!", instead of opening a dialogue about how and why they are wrong and countering the idea, even if it is one so lame that it seems it should be necessary.  So we find ourselves now focused on these loons and what they are doing, instead of focusing on the bad ideas driving their actions that are, frankly and unfortunately, shared by a lot of Americans these days.  Because we're challenging the action and challenging the speech instead of challenging the IDEA behind it.

by mdavidboyd on 09/08/2010 05:27:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"They SHOULDN'T burn the Koran" is very different from "They shouldn't be ALLOWED to burn the Koran".

And I think politicians should make their opinion known on things that have a political backround and are public.

"To me, the question of what people should or shouldn't do, what is good or bad judgment, doesn't belong in political discourse."

Strange idea. Politicians creat the laws that tell us even what we are and aren't allowed to do. So, in your opinion politicians shouldn't (?) tell kids to stay in school and learn and people in general to live responsibly?

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/08/2010 05:40:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

...I agree that "They SHOULDN'T burn the Koran" is very different from "They shouldn't be ALLOWED to burn the Koran", but I think the former tends to lead to the latter, and that a better tack is COUNTER THE IDEA, rather than getting bogged down in the question of whether or not it should be expressed.

While we are highlighting perhaps subtle but very important differences, I think that there is a difference between what we are ALLOWED to do as opposed to what we SHOULD do.  Hopefully, the list of what we are allowed to do will always be longer than the list of what we should do.  The should is totally subjective.  One person may not think people should masturbate.  Another may not think people should drink alcohol. 

To answer your query, no I actually do not think politicians have any business telling kids to stay in school or people to live responsibly.  Responsibly according to who? Should Bill Gates have stayed in school? To me, how people decide to plan their lives is above the pay grade of politicians.  I think it quickly and easily crosses over to political moralizing, which is in my opinion one of the biggest problems we have.  I do not look to politicians for moral or ethical leadership, or help in developing a life plan, and I don't think any of us should, but of course, that "should" is just my subjective opinion. 

by mdavidboyd on 09/08/2010 06:12:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]

countering the idea is what we are doing.  It's what Petraeus was doing.

Everything isn't a slippery slope.  We are capable of drawing lines in life.

by Spencer on 09/08/2010 06:27:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think "political moralizing" is really important, so you can find out what the positions of a politician are and it is part of their job to tell us what to do.
How much taxes we have to pay, what drugs we are allowed to take, in which cases we are allowed to use how much violence, where the limits of free speech are, how fast we are allowed to drive...

All these are things that politicians decide. Therefore it is important to know as much as possible about the moral framework they use to make their decisions.
The ethical development of the human race (or even the American people) is just not far enough to make Anarchy or Libertarism valuable possibilities. When you have any other system than Anarchy politicians are telling you what you are allowed to do. If they are also telling you what you should do, you can judge better in which direction they will go, when it comes to deciding what you are allowed to do.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/09/2010 06:57:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I think "political moralizing" is really important, so you can find out what the positions of a politician are and it is part of their job to tell us what to do.
Wow that's a scary consept... a part of a politicians job is to tell us what to do??? - really?

No it isn't my Finlandian friend :)
It's a politicians job to tell me what they think I can and cannot do when it comes to societal matters but most certainly not when it comes to personal matters... period!!!

How much taxes we have to pay
That a societal matter... the government needs taxes to pay for projects for the commen good (welfare, infrastucture, police, firedepartment, libraries, etc.)... so yes they are able to tell me what I have to pay in taxes...

What drugs we are allowed to take
That's a personal matter (as long as I don't drive under the influence, etc.)... so no they should not be able to tell me what drugs to take or not take (I know they do but that doesn't make it right)...

In which cases we are allowed to use how much violence
Violence is a societal matter... because violence per definition always infringes on someone elses rights (and your right to swing your arms violently about stops where my nose begins) and the defending of everybodys rights (especially the weaks rights from the tyranny of the strong) is probably the goverments finest reason to exist...

Where the limits of free speech are
Wow that's scary... the governments job is to decide where the limits of free speech are??? are you nuts???

Sure now it's just burning Qurans which most people agree is just stupid... but what happens when the government decides that criticism of the government falls outside of free speech... acording to you they have the right to do so... what then? what about the right to assembly... does that fall under the governments job to decide wheater it shoudl be allowed? what about...?

That's a dangerous slipping slide to go down my friend... so let me help you... the limit to free speech doesn't exist... free speech have NO!!! limits... period!!! and any government involvement in free speech issues (that isn't to protect someones free speech) better not happen on my watch (that's all I'm saying) :)

How fast we are allowed to drive
Under our limited technical application it's a societal matter because driving to fast kills people and again defending the weak from the strong is why we have a government in the first place... so yes they have the right to tell me how fast I can go in my car (but that said... in my world a much better solution to deaths in traffic would be to demand of carmakers that they build them fittet with cameras and radar and... etc. so they can't crash... but that's just me)...

Therefore it is important to know as much as possible about the moral framework they use to make their decisions
Not really... as long as they stay in their framework of limiting themselves to societal matters and staying out of personal matters their moral reasoning for doing things have no bearing only the limits they put up...

It didn't matter that Bush Jr. was Christian he still went to war, started boundless wiretappings, tortured in Quantanamo, etc...

It didn't matter that Obama was a progressive he still closed Acorn, escalated the war in Afghanistan, gave more power to the private insurance agencies with healthreform, expanded the patriot act, etc...

What you judge a politician on is what he does and what limits he put on your freedoms and not his morals... his stated morals are irrelevant... period!

The ethical development of the human race (or even the American people) is just not far enough to make Anarchy or Libertarism valuable possibilities
Wow your faith in your fellow man is really low isn't it :)
Well we have discussed this before and you know where I stand on Libertarianism and Anarchy so let's leave this one to the previous discussions... suffice to say I disagree :D

If they are also telling you what you should do, you can judge better in which direction they will go, when it comes to deciding what you are allowed to do
Like I said above... the notion that 'stated morals = actions consistent with that moral' is just so laughable it's not even funny... politicians lie and will say anything you want to hear to get you to vote for them (and that goes for all of them)... what you judge them on is not what they say but on what they do... and in that respect morals are (not to repeat myself) irrellevant :D

Love Thothlike

by Thothlike on 09/10/2010 05:38:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
to burn books in Gainsville..  a city ordinance  prohibits the burning of books

Under Section 10-63, "Open burning and outdoor burning are prohibited in the City of Gainesville unless otherwise specifically permitted as provided by this article."

The section goes on to prohibit burning newspaper, corrugated cardboard, container board or office paper, which are akin to books.

"Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people."- Heinrich Heine


by Chinese Democracy on 09/09/2010 05:29:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
What you just said is pretty much the exact definition of a Slippery Slope fallacy.

by ninespine on 09/08/2010 06:03:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
freedom of speech exists largely to protect unpopular speech.  But in this case I'm going to use my freedom of speech to make sure that that kind of speech stays unpopular.

It only seems like people are quashing this guy's free speech because everyone reasonable is so universally against it.  There aren't a lot of voices backing this guy (other than callers on right wing radio, of course).  But if anybody ever went as far as to say that burning the Koran should be illegal, I'd be right there with you calling bullshit.

Originally I wrote more, but opposition kind of said what I was going to, and this is all sort of academic anyway, so I'll leave it at that.

(Completely unrelated side note: I love that you actually took the time to type in complete, readable sentences.  I know that sounds incredibly condescending, and that's not my intent, but it's rare enough that I feel the need to point it out, which is sad.)

by Spencer on 09/08/2010 06:22:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's a horrible fucking idea.  These idiots are trying to provoke in hopes that there will be a backlash; just so they can say, "see look at those evil Muslims! They hate us!"  Yeah, they hate you!  Can you blame them?  Plus the municipality where this is happening already squashed it by declaring it a violation of fire code (not constitutional rights).  Evil Muslims...and peace loving Christians.

Bullshit.

by Daedalus on 09/08/2010 06:27:57 PM EST

had to add this.  Militant atheist?  How is going around telling people what not to believe any better than going around telling people what to believe.  Either way, your an asshole.

by Daedalus on 09/08/2010 06:30:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Exactly what I was thinking,

Heres a Tangent for you :)

I don't understand people like this, even though I am an Athiest I still think we should allow anyone to believe anything they want (as long as it doesn't infinge on anyones rights)

I dont care at all if you believe that I have a magical space sparkle dragon living in my attic (It's invisible and you can't touch it but it is there!) anymore than someone believing in Yaweh (who could be a magical space sparkle dragon)

But lets educate people, and tell them why these more extreme religious acts are wrong and not do the quick and easy route and eradicate religion.

by dannyhulse on 09/08/2010 06:48:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I favor religious freedom.  I don't favor attempting to force anyone to believe or not believe anything.  However, the reality is that religion is so deeply institutionalized in our society that it is forced upon us all in a wide variety of ways, from birth, and I think that those ways in which it is forced upon us need to be challenged and that public institutions that are supposed to represent us ALL should not promote religious beliefs in any way. As a secular nation, I think even believers should be appalled that our presidents tend to end every speech with "God Bless America". That's merely one example of a million.

And what I mean when I refer to myself as a "militant atheist" is that I favor strongly opposing (or fighting against if you will) the influence of religion in public life and I favor strongly arguing against it and condemning it and criticizing it through social, academic and intellectual channels.  I do not favor the use of violence in response to ideas in any situation whatsoever.  But I do believe bad ideas, of which I believe religion is very likely the worst, should be strongly challenged and condemned IN THE REALM OF IDEAS.  And that what I mean by militant...militant in that I favor maintaining a relentless fight against religion INTELLECTUALLY, not a physical fight, nor a legal prohibition of anyone's right to privately maintain and practice whatever personal belief they wish.

You may think I'm an asshole still, but hopefully you are now better informed if you still hold that position.

by mdavidboyd on 09/10/2010 01:55:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I am living in North Florida and am appalled with the ignorance I see here. This isn't a "political" thing we are dealing with here, this is common sense. This maroon is stirring up a kettle of shit for publicity to expand church membership and donations.  Some things are beyond politics . Labeling this as a political battle plays into the sale of hatred and fear. We have nothing to fear but fear mongers themselves. Placing this ignorance in the political arena is doing no one a service. Thanks for reading, Don Schneider

 

 

 

 

by don schneider on 09/08/2010 07:19:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I feel pretty much like you do about religion in general, but like you there's no way I would burn the bible just to make some kind of pointless idiotic statement.  I think these guys are being pricks by burning the Quran, but then let's face it, a lot of these born-again types are pricks.

These Christians who hold their own crazy irrational beliefs while sniffing at the crazy irrational beliefs of Muslims make me want to vomit. 

by bfaul on 09/08/2010 10:28:11 PM EST

With your views on religion, I personally think it's worse than nukes so far and guns are pretty close.

As for this, no one is telling them they can't but shouldn't as stated by others. And people have their right to say that, I personally like any religious texts burning but for obviously different reasons then these idiots. However it's not very hard for us Atheists to get caught up in the the never ending stupidity that religious people seem to create. That’s the only part I seem to care about or worry about, I do believe the third world is more pissed off at America for more important reasons like foreign policy and economic bullying. This type of shit is just the cherry on top drawing attention from larger portion.

by Alloy on 09/09/2010 04:10:22 AM EST

Daedalus is right.  

This pastor might just be doing this for a publicity stunt, or maybe he really does genuinely just think Islam is demonic, so he must "stand up" to Islam by doing something which is toothless and imbecilic.

But the way that the Right generally feels about an alll-out World War against Islam is "bring it on."  They believe that if we delay in fighting this existential war between "good" (Christians) and "evil" (Muslims), our continuing open borders and acceptance of "multi-culturalism&quo t; will soon lead to Sharia law becoming the law of the land in America.  These Christian warriors are aging--they don't want to wait 25 more years for the Great Christian/Muslim War for America--by then they might be too old and weak to still aim their gun properly.

There is no belief among the Right that any Muslim could ever be a friend to America or to Christians, or that any Muslim will ever speak out against Al Queda (and, according to FOX, none do).  so there is not the tiniest inkling that there could be a peaceful way forward, and this is why everything Muslim is seen as Nazi-esque.  

God damn what the stupid Constitution says about Freedom of Religion.

by Milltycoon on 09/09/2010 04:14:25 AM EST

On the American site it's not (only) Christian fundamentalists, even though they make up a big part, but patriots.
At least compared to the Middle East America is a very secular country. Those people who are afraid of Sharia-law are not all Christians, many of them are atheists (or agnostics) who fear for "the American way", as you can see in this forum.
As far as I can see Hugh and Macmaline are not Christians and still they are the loudest, when it comes to fighting against this imagined threat.
When you would have made a poll among American soldiers in Iraq, what do you think, how many would have said that they are there to defend Christianity and how many because they consider it their patriotic duty?
I think the patriots would be at least 98%, even though some of them might also be Christians.

This is in my opinion true for all the war in world history, maybe with the exception of the crusades, even though financial and nationalistic motivations were probably at least as much of a motivation for the soldiers as religion was.

Therefore I think that patriotism is much more evil than religion, because without support from patriots religious wars would never be fought.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/09/2010 09:03:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]

how about instead of burning Qurans, they sit down and draw caricatures of Mohammed and then print them in the paper.

That would satisfy your natural inclination against poking the Mulsims by not burning books, but all the creative artists would still make the most wanted list dead or alive in Islam.

With 10,000's of cultures, someone will be offended religiously or otherwise by anything someone else does or says.  Whatever you do infringes on their rights, it's inescapable. So the author is right, eliminating religion would eliminate a lot of what divides us, or was that Karl Marx?  Patreaus is right, too, it will hurt the war effort, but so what.

There shouldn't be a war effort. 

The Quran burners are right, too.  They want to send a message to Muslims that the old ways are not acceptable.  Just printing words on paper or typing blogs isn't enough.  Because Sunnis make up 85% of all Muslims, and unlike Christians are not broken up into little groups, they all follow the same rules.  The difference between a liberal, moderate, or radical Muslim is the teaching of the local Imam. As Imams change so does the character of the Muslims within the mosque.

Muslims committing terrorism are not illiterate peasants, they are usually well educated intelligent young men.  Well educated enough to understand the difference between right and wrong and the moral impact of their actions.  And yet, because of religion they do it.

Without  a central authority figure, all Muslims must take responsibility for the actions of their co-religionists, unlike Christians whom can point to their various sect leaders. That being said, what are American Muslims doing to change the horrific behavior of their Arab cousins?

I vote for cartoon day, let's show Mohammed with performing FMG on young girls, executing young women (honor killing), and marrying 12 year olds.  maybe then Muslims will get the idea that we have a problem with their customs.

 

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 06:38:56 AM EST

If you want to eliminate what devides us you mustn't eliminate religion, you must eliminate the secular version of it: Patriotism!

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/09/2010 09:04:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Religion has killed far more people than nationalism ever imagined.  I would rather have national pride and no religion, than religion and exist as a slave to the state.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 09:52:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Many soldiers might fight for religious reasons, but nearly all of them fight for patriotic reasons.
Did the Nazis kill for religious or nationalistic reasons?
How about the soldiers of the USSR? The Romans? The Vietcong? The American soldiers in Iraq? How many wars have there been between states and how many between religions?

I also don't understand why not being patriotic means "exist as a slave to the state". If anything the opposite might be true.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/09/2010 10:06:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]

If there is no nationalism and only religion then we can only live in a theocracy.  Your patriotic wars only began in recent history.  Go back a few thousand years and most wars were in the name of some God or another.  The number of people killed was mind numbing.

Those killed in the name of Communism were killed simply to replace of one religion for another.  Hitler's genocides are a case in point.  Those deaths can be attributed to Eugenics gone mad and had clear religious overtones.

The number of deaths in wars recently is inconsequential compared to the genocide of the Spanish.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 10:43:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"If there is no nationalism and only religion then we can only live in a theocracy."

No, we could also live in automomous communes and other similar organisations. There are many ways to organise society without creating states and especially without the notion that you should be proud of the state you were born in, by chance.

"Go back a few thousand years and most wars were in the name of some God or another."

So the Romans fought their wars because of religion? That's maybe also the reason why they frequently adapted the religions of countries they conquored. The American civil war was about what religion? The reason Germans fought against Brits, French, Finns... were definitly not because of Eugenics, because they all were "Arian races". Who is the "god" in communism, if not the state? The American genocide on Indians was about religion? The Armenian genocide, too? When Athens fought against Sparta it was because of which religious differences? The wars between China and Japan? The Iraq war (I'm talking about the soldiers motivation, not what you might think Bush's motivation was)? World War I was which religion against which? I can go on if you want me too.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/10/2010 02:42:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]

grasshopper.  Riddle yourself this...why did perfectly good Christians feel no compunction about murdering savages.  It's because they didn't have Christ in their life.

Don't tell me we are in Iraq for nationalism, that's about oil.

Roman soldiers fought for conquest, not nationalism.  Adapting religions was their way of subjugating the people.

let's see there were the crusades...or the Muslim wars to conquer Africa, Asia and Europe.

If there is anti-matter, then there is anti-god and communism is the worship of the anti-god.  those who don't agree, off with there head.  Nationalism only came to preeminence in the last 250 years.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/10/2010 07:50:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If there is anti-matter, then there is anti-god

That doesn't even make sense.

by OneHitKill on 09/10/2010 10:41:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh wait. It does, if you change "there" to "their."

by OneHitKill on 09/10/2010 10:42:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]

ahead.  If science can propose the concept of duality where matter and anti-matter exist.  Then the proposition that God and a non-God exists follows the exact same principle.

Socialists will jump up and down that they don't follow a religion.  Except if you try to alter their beliefs they become dogmatic.  If in the case of USSR and China, you said the opposite they killed you or re-educated you to their way of thinking.  Then socialism tries to develop a moral code based on the humanity of man.

If it walks like a duck...only in socialism god becomes the anti-god.

Something to think about.

I didn't ignore your earlier post about social communes.  That one is too far out in left field to even contemplate in the next 50 years of American society.  I pick that number, because Gen X will never support it.

Have you ever tapped into the yahoo bulletin board for the SPGB?  They have a continuing discussion about Socialism you might find interesting, and then again not.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/10/2010 11:38:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Except if you try to alter their beliefs they become dogmatic."

So, the American democracy is also a religion?
When you alter their beliefs (for excample that everybody should be allowed to have a weapon) they become dogmatic. They don't argue based on reason, but based on the Constitution. That's dogmatic.

"If science can propose the concept of duality where matter and anti-matter exist.  Then the proposition that God and a non-God exists follows the exact same principle."

Maybe. Even if I would accept that after your logic energy would be anti-matter. It's not matter, therefore it must be anti-matter. Communists don't worship god, therfore they worship anti-god.

"I didn't ignore your earlier post about social communes.  That one is too far out in left field to even contemplate in the next 50 years of American society."

So you think it's possible, but just not in the close future? I thought the only alternative to patriotism was theocracy...

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/10/2010 01:05:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

religion.  Who will be in charge, the religion.  No one is going to accept social communes at the present time and you know that.  Don't be obtuse.

Proposing something that 95% of the people will not accept is a non-discussion.  A power vacuum cannot exist or there is chaos and we go back to a warlord existence, not social communes.  People are then controlled by religion.  That is the way of civilization.  That is the way it has always been and will be unless you can remove the genes for power and greed from human existence.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 01:18:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Getting rid of patriotism is not the same as getting rid of states.
States are, at least for now, necessary to organise societies. Patriotism is the notion that being born in a certain state is something to be proud of.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/11/2010 06:57:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]

you belong to a state but you have no pride in your home?  What would be the point of the state?  Why would people give their time to the state for the benefit of others?  Wouldn't you just get a hedonistic environment where everyone simply fought for their own piece of the pie without concern for their neighbor?

There is no previous history of people not having pride in their state unilaterally  helping their neighbor.  Without an historical precedence it would be folly to anticipate a movement towards social equality without a catalyst.  - Just answering your next statement.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 09:48:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"There is no previous history of people not having pride in their state unilaterally"

There is also no previous history of people in a certain state not having religion. Nevertheless people here always talk how important it would be to get rid of religion. The thought that you need historical precedence to anticipate something is extremly conservative. Progressive, by definition, want to move beyond the current situation.
Patriotism is being proud of the state you were by coincidence born in. In my opinion you should only be proud of things you have achieved yourself. That's why you shouldn't be proud to be white, heterosexual, a man...
However if you had to struggle to overcome obstacles you can be proud of that.
There also have been states where patriotism was not considered something positive. I know this for sure about Germany, because I grew up there.
We cosidered patriotism as something dangerous and a crutch for people who have a problem with their own life and need something they hadn't achieved on their own to be proud of, because they are losers.
People would still consider it worth giving their time to the state for the benefit of others, because that's a good way to help other people, regardless of their nationality. The structure of the state just provides a good infrastructure to help. That's the only reason why states should be accepted. In no way does this lead to more hedonism, if anything the opposite is true, because people have to think more on their own. No authority tells you what's right or wrong, you have to find that out on your own.

P.S.: Sadly Germany is moving away from this attitude, because consumerism becomes more and more prevalent.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/12/2010 08:18:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]

a decline in Patriotism as a natural consequence of losing the war.  Both are now returning to their natural state.  The pendulum swings back.  there is nothing wrong with that.  Patriotism can be a  force of good or evil depending on the leaders and the economic situation.

When you mix nationalism or religion with economic dislocation you usually get a toxic brew.  In the end the economy is the match that sets the nation on fire.  Germany and Japan have a long way to go before that will become an issue.

Germans have much to be proud of and they shouldn't be bashful, just not expansionist like the United States.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/12/2010 11:54:02 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Don't tell me we are in Iraq for nationalism, that's about oil."

Damn, those soldiers are all there, because they want oil? And nobody is telling them that it would be much easier to go to a gas station than to Iraq to get that?

"Roman soldiers fought for conquest, not nationalism."

About the same goes for those soldiers who want land.

You see, there is a difference between the motivation of the leaders and the followers. The leaders started every war because of power. The question is why people followed them and that reason was only in some exceptional cases religion. Not even a conflict like the one in Northern Ireland is because of religion.
The conquers of the Ottoman Empire were not about religion, otherwise there would have been a forced conversion and not the Jizya. The Empire was quite tolerant towards Christians and Jews, which means that they would have had no motivation to attack Christian states.

"communism is the worship of the anti-god"

So if communism is the worship of the anti-god, communists are the same as satanists. Beck would be proud of your logic.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/10/2010 12:29:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
anti-god.  Anti-god is the absence of God.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 01:12:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The absence of something is not anti- something.
Or is anti-matter the absence of matter?

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/11/2010 06:52:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 09:42:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
because they are people of the book and subject to taxation.  For non-believers they were completely intolerant and put to the sword.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 01:20:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
They didn't fight the wars to get rid of non-believers. Otherwise they wouldn't have attacked Christian countries.
Ergo, the soldiers were not motivated by religion when they attacked Christian countries, but by patriotism.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 09/11/2010 06:55:02 AM EST

[ Parent ]
what was the patriotism?  Love of the sultan?

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/11/2010 09:43:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]
would not use the term evil... evil is a biblical term


by Chinese Democracy on 09/09/2010 11:13:38 PM EST

You "loathe them all", you are a "militant atheist".

 

You cant have a discussion about it when your mind is closed.

it is very dangerous to have a mind closed, it can ruin your life. You feed your ideas, you protect them and make them stronger, but it doesnt make you stronger.  It only makes them stronger and you become a slave of them.

Nothing is black or white.

by Vittorio2 on 09/10/2010 04:40:50 PM EST

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